Habr Special // Podcast with the author of the book “Invasion. A brief history of Russian hackers "

Habr Special is a podcast in which we will invite programmers, writers, scientists, businessmen and other interesting people. The guest of the first issue is Daniel Turovsky, the special correspondent of Medusa, who wrote the book “Invasion. A brief history of Russian hackers. In the book there are 40 chapters that tell about how the Russian-speaking hacker community originated, first in the late USSR and then in Russia, and what it has evolved now. The author took years to collect the invoice, but the release took just a few months, which is very fast by the standards of publishers. With the permission of Individuum, we publish a passage of the book , and in this post - decoding the most interesting of our conversation.


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About book heroes and special services

- Tell us about the most stringent precautions of those with whom you met, collecting texture.
- Most often, these acquaintances begin with the fact that you represent someone. You understand that you need this person, and after a few people you come to him. Otherwise, without a proxy person, it is impossible.

Several meetings took place on the slopes or near the train stations. Because there are many people at rush hour, there is noisy, no one pays attention to you. And you walk in a circle and talk. And this is not only in this topic. This is a frequent method of communicating with sources - to meet in the most "gray" places: near the road, on the outskirts.

There were conversations that simply did not get into the book. There were people who confirmed some information, and it was impossible to tell and quote about them. Meeting with them was a little more difficult.

In “The Invasion” there are not enough stories from inside the special services, because this is an extremely closed topic, of course. I wanted to go to visit them and see how it looks - to communicate at least officially with people from Russian kibervoysk. But the standard answers are either "no comment" or "do not deal with this topic."

These searches look as stupid as possible. Cybersecurity conferences are the only place where you can meet people from there. You come up to the organizers, you ask: are there people from the Ministry of Defense or the FSB? You say: these are people without badges. And you walk through the crowd, looking for people without badges. The success rate is zero. You meet them, but then nothing happens. You ask: are you from there? - Well, yes, but we will not communicate. These are extremely suspicious people.

- That is, over the years of work on the topic, there was not a single contact from there?
- No, there is, of course, but not through conferences, but through acquaintances.

- What distinguishes people from special services from ordinary hackers?
- Ideological component, of course. You cannot work in the departments and not be sure that we have foreign enemies. You work for very little money. In research institutes, for example, where they are actively engaged in defense, salaries are catastrophically low. At the initial stage there may be 27 thousand rubles, despite the fact that you should know a lot of things. If you are not directed from the point of view of an idea, you will not work there. Of course, there is stability: in 10 years you will have a salary of 37 thousand rubles, then you retire with a higher rate. But if we talk about differences in general, then there is not a very big difference in communication. If you do not communicate on any topics, then you will not understand.

- After the release of the book from the security forces have not yet been reported?
- Usually you do not write. These are silent actions.

I had an idea after the release of the book to go through all departments and put it on the threshold. But I still thought that this was some kind of actionism.

- Did the book heroes comment on it?
- The time after the release of the book is very dumb for the author. You walk around the city and all the time it seems that someone is looking at you. This is an exhausting feeling and with a book it lasts longer because it spreads more slowly [than the article].

With other authors of books in the genre of non-fiction, I discussed how long the response time of the characters takes, and everyone says that it takes about two months. But all the major reviews, because of which I sought, received in the first two weeks. Everything is more or less OK. One of the book’s heroes tweeted me on the My List, and I don’t know what that means. I do not want to think about it.

But the great thing about these reviews is that people who I couldn’t talk to, because they were in US prisons, have now written to me and are ready to tell their stories. I think there will be additional chapters in the third edition.

- Who got in touch with you?
- I will not speak by name, but these are people who attacked American banks and e-commerce. They were lured to European countries or America, where they spent time. But they got "well", because they sat down until 2016, when the dates were much less. If a Russian hacker gets there now, it gets a lot of years. Recently, someone gave 27 years. And these guys stayed one for six years, and the other - four.

- There were those who refused to talk to you at all?
- Of course, there are always such people. The percentage is not very large, as in the usual report on any topic. This is the amazing magic of journalism - almost everyone to whom you come, as if they are waiting for a journalist to come and listen to their story. This is due to the fact that people generally do not really listen, and they want to talk about their pain, incredible stories, strange events in life. And even relatives are usually not very interested in this, because everyone is busy with their life. Therefore, when a person comes who is extremely interested to listen to you, you are ready to tell him everything. Often it looks so amazing that even people have documents ready and daddies with photos. You come, and you just lay them on the table. And here it is important not to let a person go right after the first conversation.

One of the main journalistic advice was given to me by David Hoffman, one of the best non-fiction writers. He wrote, for example, “The Dead Hand” - a book about the Cold War - and “The Million Dollar Spy”, also a cool book. The advice is that you need to go to the hero several times. He said that the daughter of one of the heroes of the “Dead Hand”, associated with the Soviet air defense, for the first time spoke in great detail about his father. Then he [Hoffman] returned to Moscow and came to her again, and it turned out that she had her father’s diaries. And then he came to her again, and when he left, it turned out that she had not only diaries, but also secret documents. He says goodbye, and she: "Oh, I have some additional documents in that box." So he went many times, and ended with the fact that the hero's daughter handed floppy disks with materials that the father collected. In short, you need to build trust with the heroes. It is necessary to show that you are extremely interested.

“In the book, you mention those who acted according to instructions from the Hacker magazine.” Is it correct to call them hackers at all?
- The community, of course, considers them to be boys who decided to cut the money. Not very respected. As in the gangster community, the same hierarchy. But the entry threshold has now become more difficult, it seems to me. Then everything was much more open in terms of instructions and less protected. In the late 90s - the beginning of zero the police were not at all interested. Until recently, if someone sat down for hacking, then sat down on the "administrative", as far as I know. Russian hackers could be imprisoned if they argued that they were in an organized criminal group.

- What did happen with the elections in the USA in 2016? In the book you mention this little.
- This is special. It seems to me that now it is impossible to get to the bottom of it. I didn’t want to write and understand a lot about it, because we’ve already done it all. I wanted to tell you what could have caused this. Actually, almost the whole book about it.

There seems to be an official American position: this was done by personnel officers of the Russian special services from Komsomolsky Prospect, 20. But most of those with whom I spoke, they say that from there, perhaps, something was supervised, but in general this was done by freelance hackers, rather than staff members. Very little time has passed. Probably more will become known later.

About the book

- You say that there will be new editions, additional chapters. But why did you choose the format of the book as a finished work? Why not web?
- Nobody reads special projects - this is extremely expensive and extremely unpopular. Although it looks beautiful, of course. The boom began after the project Snow Fall, which released the New York Times (in 2012 - approx. Ed.). It seems that it does not work, because people on the Internet are not ready to spend more than 20 minutes on text. Even on Medusa, large texts need to be read for a very long time. And if there is even more, then no one will read.

Book - this is the format of the output reading, the weekly magazine. For example, "New Yorker", where texts can be as big as a third of a book. You sit down and are immersed in only one process.

- Tell me how you started working on the book?
- I realized that I needed to write this book in early 2015, when I went on a business trip to Bangkok. I was making a story about Humpty Dumpty (Anonymous International blog, ed.) And when I met them, I realized that it was an unknown, hidden world that was hardly explored. I like stories about people with a “double bottom”, who in ordinary life look super-ordinary, but suddenly they can do something unusual.

From 2015 to the end of 2017 there was an active phase of collecting invoices, materials and stories. When I realized that the base was assembled, I went to write it to America, having received the fellowship.

- Why exactly there?
- Actually because I got this fellowship here. I sent a request that I have a project and I need time and place to deal only with them. Because it is impossible to write a book if you work on a daily basis. I took a vacation in Medusa at my own expense and went to Washington for four months. The ideal were four months. I got up early, studied the book until three o'clock in the afternoon, and after that there was free time when I read, watched a movie, met with American reporters.

Writing a draft of the book took these four months. And in March 2018, I returned with the feeling that he was no good at all.

- Was it your feeling or editor's opinion?
- The editor appeared a little later, but at that time it was my feeling. I have it permanent - from everything that I do. This is a very useful feeling of hatred and self-dissatisfaction, because it allows you to grow. It happens that this turns into a completely negative course when you begin to dig in [work], and then this is already very bad.

Just in March, I began to bury myself and for a very long time I was not engaged in finishing the draft. Because the draft is only the first stage. Somewhere until mid-summer, I thought I needed to score on the project. But then I realized what really remained quite a bit, and did not want this project to repeat the fate of the previous two, which I had - two other books that did not come out. These were projects on migrant workers in 2014 and on the Islamic state in 2014–2016. Draft were written, but were in less than ready condition.

I sat down, looked at the plan that I had, understood what was missing, finished the plan, restructured it. I decided that it should be the most popular reading, in the sense that it was easy to read, and broke it into small domes, because not everyone is now ready to read big stories.

The book is conventionally divided into four parts: Roots, Money, Power and War. It seemed to me that there were not enough stories for the first. And probably not enough so far. Therefore, we will have an addition and we will add them there.

At about this moment I agreed with the editor, because it is impossible to work with either long texts or books without an editor. They became Alexander Gorbachev - my colleague, with whom we worked at that moment in Medusa, the best editor of narrative texts in Russia. We have been acquainted with him for a very long time - since 2011, when we worked in the Playbill - and we understand each other in terms of texts by 99%. We sat down and discussed the structure, decided what needs to be redone. And until October — November, I finished everything, then the editing began, and in March 2019 the book went to the publishing house.

- It seems, by the standards of publishers, two months from March to May is not much at all.
- Yes, I like working with the publishing house Individual. That's why I chose him, realizing that everything will be arranged that way. And also because the cover will be cool. After all, in the Russian publishing house covers disastrously vulgar or strange.

It turned out that everything was faster than I thought. The book went through two proofs, they made a cover for it and printed it. And all this took two months.

- So, your main work in Medusa has led you to write books several times?
- This is due to the fact that I have been engaged in long texts for many years. To prepare them, you need to immerse yourself in the topic more than for the usual reporting. It took years, although I, of course, are not a professional in either. That is, it is impossible to compare me with researchers of a scientific persuasion — this is still journalism, rather superficial.

But if you have been involved in the topic for many years, you have an insane amount of textures and heroes that are not included in the Medusa materials. I have been preparing the topic for a very long time, and as a result only one text comes out, and I understand that it was possible to go here and there.

- Do you think the book is successful?
- There will definitely be an additional circulation, because this one - 5000 copies - is almost over. In Russia, five thousand is a lot. If sold 2000, the publishing house open champagne. Although, of course, compared to the views on Medusa, these are surprisingly small numbers.

- How much is the book?
- In paper - about 500 ₽. Books are now much more expensive. I've been biting my elbows for a long time and I was going to buy Slezkin's “Government House” - it stands under two thousand. And on the day when I got ready, they gave it to me.

“Any plans to translate Invasion into English?”
- Of course there is. From the point of view of readings, it is more important that the book be published in English - the audience is much larger. For some time there are negotiations with the American publishing house, but it is not clear when it will be released.

Some people who read the book say it feels like it is written for that market. There are some phrases in it that the Russian reader does not really need. There are explanations like “Sapsan (high-speed train from Moscow to St. Petersburg)”. Although there are probably people in Vladivostok who do not know [about Sapsan].

About the attitude to the topic

- I caught myself thinking that the stories in your book are perceived as rather romanticized. Between the lines it seems to be: being a hacker is fun! Doesn't it seem that after the release of the book some responsibility fell on you?
- No, it does not. As I have already said, there is no additional idea of ​​mine here, I am telling what is happening. But the task to show it is attractive, no, of course. This is so because in order for the book to be interesting, the characters must be interesting.

- Have you changed your network habits after writing? Maybe paranoia added?
- I have eternal paranoia. Because of this topic, it has not changed. Maybe a little bit was added due to the fact that I was trying to communicate with government agencies and made me understand that I should not do this.

- In the book you write: “I was thinking about ... working in the FSB. Fortunately, these thoughts did not last long: I soon became seriously interested in texts, stories, and journalism. ” Why "fortunately"?
- I don’t really want to work in the special services, because it is clear that you [in this case] get into the system. But actually “fortunately” is that collecting stories and doing journalism is exactly what I need to do. This is clearly the main business of my life. Both now and then. Cool that I found it. In information security obviously would not be very happy. Although my whole life was very close: my father is a programmer, and my brother does the same [IT] things.

- Remember how you yourself first appeared on the web?
- It was very early - the 90s - we had a modem that made scary sounds. I do not remember what we watched with my parents at that time, but I remember when I myself became actively on the Internet. It was probably the year 2002-2003. I always sat at literary forums and forums about Nick Perumov. A lot of years of my life has been associated with contests and the study of creativity of all sorts of fantasy writers.

- What will you do if your book starts to pirate?
- On Flibust? I check it every day, but there’s nothing there. One of the heroes wrote to me that he only downloads it from there. Against I will not, because it is impossible to avoid.

I can tell you when I can pirate myself. These are cases where it is very inconvenient to use [services] legally. In Russia, when something goes on HBO, it is impossible to look on the same day. It is necessary to download somewhere from strange services. One of them seems to represent HBO officially, but in poor quality and without subtitles. It happens that it is impossible to download a book anywhere, except for documents "In contact".

In general, it seems to me, now almost everyone has retrained. It is unlikely that someone listens to music from zaycev.net. When it becomes convenient, it is easier to pay for the subscription and enjoy it.