Do service companies dream about their products? Conversation with maxilect

It seems to me that many good developers and engineers have ever wondered what to do with their knowledge and skills in a global sense. Find an idea and create your own important and cool thing, for which even the word “product” will seem petty and vulgar. Or go with their knowledge to other people and help them to implement their ideas.

Both ways are good, both have pros and cons. But around both are formed their own stereotypes. For some reason, “making a grocery start-up” sounds romantically cool, and “making a service company and writing code on request” is utilitarian, mundane, and even soulless for someone.
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I talked to Maxim Korotkov, the founder of Maxilect, about his experience between these two ways. After an unsuccessful experience with his product, he founded a service company, while he does not want to raise it even to 200 people, even though this directly affects profits. Why - in our conversation.

Maxilect was ranked among the best employers in My Circle IT with an average rating of 4.81 . Employees rated the company above all by such criteria as: modern technologies used in work, adequate remuneration of labor, professional and career growth, and communication with the top management of the company.

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Maxim Korotkov, CEO Maxilect.

I am a mathematician by education. He studied at the physics and mathematics school, then Matmeh, computer science, programming. Then he worked as a developer. Almost immediately went to the states where he lived for 15 months. He returned in 2001, worked as a Java programmer for another 5-6 years, then became the project manager. Received a business education in 2008-10. Traveled through the exchange of experience in Beijing.

Then ambitions grew, and problems began with finding a job. What I did before was not interesting, but what I wanted to do was not given to me. I wanted to do marketing and sales, but it didn't work out. Several times a person with experience was taken instead of me, although I did the test tasks quite well.

In 2009, I tried to make my own product, and spent a lot of time on analysis, preparing a business plan, meeting with investors - just not on creating the first version of the product. In general, I did everything that is taught in business school, but at the start, you need to think less and do more.

Then I was offered a remote job by a project manager. I wondered if I could work remotely, but I agreed, and probably did the right thing. So he led projects - seven, ten, or even fifteen pieces at a time. About a year later I began to expand the project office, and in fact I was already performing the functions of operations director. I offered the owner to give me a share in the business - I was ready to move the company's business even more, but I did not hear any mutual understanding. It was the end of 2014. I left, realizing that the next job would not be better. I felt a dead end in my professional development.

- In a difficult time you left.

I had savings. I also earned on that collapse. In the seventh and eighth years, I worked in a company that was engaged in trading, so I knew what futures were. He opened an account and earned a good ruble-dollar pair.

He lived - he didn’t bother, and he was already beginning to think about his business, although by inertia he went for interviews. I also understood that everything that was taught in business school should be left out of my head when you create a company from scratch. You just need to work a lot - 14-15 hours to start.

I knew my strengths and weaknesses well and understood that I needed a partner, but rather two. I chose the guys, called me to a cafe, made a presentation on my knee and sold them the idea of ​​creating a company.

- Were they friends?

Making a business with friends is a bad story. These were former colleagues. At the beginning, the thoughts were different, from tenders in the Russian market to communications and Upwork.

We rejected the tenders, because we already understood how everything works there. We had little chance - at that time we didn’t even have an LLC. For Russian business, IP is like bombing. And if LLC, then it seems like checkers, a company with which you can deal.

Therefore, we chose Upwork and connections, but in the first months, mostly Upwork. Found the first projects, earned a reputation, got a top rated sign. But they also realized that we won’t make any money there.

- Why?

There is very tough competition. We passed a certain path, made our way through the crowds of Indians and Pakistanis. But at Upwork they dump very heavily, and those rates that we could get - they were enough only for payments to specialists. There was nothing left for development. Although I know there are companies that successfully work there. But many of them began to work long ago, when Upwork was not so saturated yet.


A business trip to Los Angeles in November 2018

And we were still a stateless company. In 2016, we decided to open an LLC after all, and we had the first projects from Russia. At first it was orders through acquaintances - they had worked with someone before, they were friends with someone. To our surprise orders turned out a decent amount. I would never have thought that my friends may have connections that will be given to projects.

The former head told me: business is talking. It is necessary to communicate, it is necessary to talk about what you are doing.

But we also understood that such a sales channel is finite. Began to build a marketing plan. We have relied on the creation of BI (Business Intelligence) systems for collecting, storing and analyzing data. Following added ML (Machine Learning). Then it was HYIP. We were negotiating, about 10-15 at the same time, and it seemed that they last forever. In Russia, corruption, switch, inability and unwillingness to make decisions, eternal crises - first of all in the minds.

Life is finite, so in 2017 we pulled the emergency brake, and threw all these topics. We realized that we need something else. We initially wanted to make difficult decisions. They did not want to engage in websites, there is no money there - it is difficult to compete with students. A complex development attracts interesting shots. And in the future it worked right.

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Your product or outsourcing

From the very beginning we were interested in several directions:

• Advertising technology (AdTech). Creating solutions for the effective sale and purchase of online advertising.
• Financial technology. In complexity, these are systems of the same order. There and there is a high load, you can not lose data, zero delay on what we do, scalability.
• The third direction is the blockchain. What was HYIP, but was already declining. We decided not to deal with cryptocurrencies, but used blockchain to build final solutions. Business applications, where it is not dragged by for marketing, and where it is really needed.
• We also do subcontracting. This is not shameful, even good, especially for start-up companies. For many, the sales department is gaining more than they can digest, and we, albeit at a lower price, are working. This format allows you to create the backbone of the team.
• We work on a team expansion model. Banks, insurance companies and other large companies have a problem with resources - no matter how many offices they open in Russia, there are still not enough specialists.

- If you had experience with your product, why not try again? I think the engineer to do their fun.

Why we did not start with the products? This is trite. To start a business, you need capital. The idea to create your startup, to take money from an investor - I already had a similar experience, I decided not to make a second attempt. We do not eliminate this for ourselves, but the main reason is that I did not want to risk a few more years of my life.

A service company where we provide software development services is not bad either. Maybe not so interesting, there is a linear dependence of the profit on the number of employees, the business is very complicated. It cannot be said that he is better or worse - he is different.

This is twofold. There are statements, wishes, that I want product development. But you have to understand - there are products where developers can sit for a few years and get bored. And even degrade. Then they will want to do something else, but there is no other in the grocery company.

- But this is a bad scenario. And he may be good.

Why bad? If a person works for several years on the same project, he will be bored. This is the risk of product companies. Yes, at the start it is interesting to create a product, the dynamics of development is different. There are no jokes from an external customer. But after several years, people get tired of one project - this is a fact.

I will talk a lot, and developers from product companies come to us. They say that I want different projects, because one has already sat on one, the technology is outdated.


Meeting in St. Petersburg in December 2017

- Your decision to leave programming and try marketing was not a result of burnout?

It was, it was. For three days in a row I looked in the mirror and realized that I did not want to go to work, although it seemed like the team was cool. I personally did not like programming, as a process, I liked the result.

Maybe this is satiety. Everything becomes a routine, any craft. You worked as a turner, did stools, as in school work lessons. Make the first stool interesting, the second - is not very much. So, probably, in any profession. This happens sooner or later.

- You understand that many cool people with whom you work can come to this sooner or later.

They can, therefore, we regularly communicate, build trusting relationships. I don’t have a door, we are a distributed team. Write a letter, call on Skype, let's talk.

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How does a small service company earn

On different projects we use different income models. In addition to the classic time and resource fees, there are some unusual ones:

• With startups, we can work on a profit sharing model. This is a situation where we, as partners, provide support in terms of technical solutions and in the future want to participate in profits.
• Or we can work on a fixed price model (Fixed Price). Immediately we call the cost of the work and by the results we take no more and no less. To do this, you need to carefully work out the requirements, to give an accurate estimate of the cost and time. Thus, we take more risks.
• By Fixed Price we can work as consultants. There is more business analyst work, which helps the client to build a three-page draft product vision, a high-level description of the system, so as to give an accurate assessment and start working.

- Fiksprais - is it very risky?

This is tin. But it shows the company's readiness for complex projects. And it gives you the opportunity - to make a decision from scratch, choose the architecture and sometimes even earn more than the usual scheme. If we are sure that we can manage and manage risks, then the profitability of projects will be higher.

- On the site hangs a die that it costs from $ 15.000. Is it just to attract attention? The figure does not seem real.

This is for cutting off, if we are talking about startups, so that companies with a budget of 200 thousand rubles and a desire to “do something” will not come to us. It is not profitable economically.

- It does not cut the opposite of good companies? They see the figure and understand that it is not serious. For this money it is impossible to do anything.

There is also a "from". And if we do marketing campaigns in the West, we use other brochures, where examples of projects for one hundred thousand and two hundred are shown.

- That is, the real fixsprays much more?

Yes, but on that plate not only about fix-prices - it can be generally about any budget of the project.

- How long does the project take on the fix list?

It depends on what needs to be done, how well defined the requirements are. MVP we did from two to six months. Two is a very small project. Half a year is already more serious, possibly with the division into several projects.


Meeting in St. Petersburg in December 2017. Founders of the company

- A share in a startup - it is not even more risk?

Of course. But when there is already a service company that generates income, you think that you will be working on it for a few more years, and then it will become boring. And perhaps it will be inefficient spending of life time.

The attempt that was with my product is not forgotten. It was a great time, I danced and sang, blissed out from what I was doing. But unfortunately, this is not over. Although I remember very well how I felt. I hope life will allow me to try again. But it will already be an attempt, where I will work on the division of profits, or act as a developer, investor, or all together.

- Why I see it risky. It's one thing when you invest free money and wait for the result. Other - when you invest your main asset - the time of developers. You can put all the time in a few start-ups, no one will shoot, and you have not earned money anywhere else all this time.

That's right. But this is if you set the goal of making money, and not creating something for which you will be remembered. The company that I tried to create in 2009 was a part of me. I invested my life, strength and emotions, all the money, I got into debt.

I also give myself away from working at Maxilect, and this is not only about money. This is about how you live. For example, the fact that we work remotely allows me to live in the village for half a year. I packed up my suitcases in May, since spinogryses didn’t go to school, and left until October. Cool? Cool.

If you think about investments, then of course there are more risks. But the possible win more. The profit of a service company depends on the number of employees directly, but I am not sure that I want to grow a company even up to two hundred people. This will be a different business, the contact with the guys we work with will be lost.

But according to the profit sharing model, we have not yet begun to work with anyone, we have not found those with whom we are ready. However, this idea is not dead, we will definitely do it further.

- Today, what brings you more profit?

Now - work on the model expansion teams. This is stable, and the projects we do at fixed prices and for the hours worked are shorter and more risky.

- 40 people is not enough. But it seems that you have a lot of projects. Are there enough people?

When you work for three years, and two of them - at least 14 hours a day, you manage to do a lot of things, both good and wrong. We used to grab on all the projects. Much of what we have in the portfolio, only in the portfolio and looks beautiful. But this is such a financial pain, which is better not to recall.

Now we understand that it is better to have fewer customers, but more profitable ones.

- Do you still work for 14 hours?

Not. I consciously made a slowdown when I had a second child. Plus, I got tired, I realized that I can just burn. In addition, there was a team of managers who can delegate part of the activity.

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Control and trust in remote work

- Until now, many companies believe that a normal process without an office cannot be built.

This is strange, because the synonym for the remote is a distributed command. And if a company has more than one office, then basically teams are built using people from different offices. They already essentially work on the remote. It is just a matter of control.

Either the workers are paid for the time they spend in the office under the strict eye of the manager who forces the working atmosphere. Or they work on the result.

And if the result, then what's the problem? Let them work even from the office, even from home. The market is now changing a lot. And companies are releasing home staff more and more.


Workshop, autumn 2018

- I heard, on the contrary, the companies burned and return everyone back to the offices.

As they say, they simply do not know how to cook properly. If you take a large company - the noise is mainly given by them - and you just send all the people to a remote place, then this will be an epic file. 80 percent will not be able to work outside the office. They do not have developed skills of self-organization, self-responsibility, self-education. And they really get lost. Other reasons are likely to be named, but the results will sluggish. Failure to focus will kill work time.

Those failures, about which I heard, supposedly the trend of the remote has passed - the HYIP and the peak have passed. Even if there is a recession now, this does not mean that the market has stopped. It will develop, but more consciously. In this regard, it is simpler for us - we were originally created as a distributed company.

- When you say that companies do not know how - is it a problem of managers or developers who are not ready?

This is probably the problem of corporate culture. If it is laid incorrectly from the beginning — basic values, norms — then people will choose the wrong way. When everything is sharpened under the remote, people have a result in their head, responsibility, but at the same time full trust and respect. I'm really not interested in what's on the screen of a person. Does the result and does. Everything.

I can not imagine myself in a situation where they tell me - you work, and we write your screen. I would quit a minute after hearing this. This disrespect to me. In 1998, at my first job, my manager went behind the back and watched what I was doing. He was German, and I turned, said in my broken English - “don't.” He understood me and did not do that again.

It is necessary to correctly approach the issue of recruiting specialists, build values, norms, spend more time not on checking technical skills, but on checking software skills.

- I read your article , how you have a remote place, and read comments to it. It seems that she seemed contradictory to many. You say “there is no control,” but between the lines he sees that there is control and quite a lot.

Roughly speaking: “you arrive at eight or nine in the morning, work until six or seven in the evening, and if you do not succeed, you should report this. You have to agree on how much lunch you will have - an hour or two. ” Such things often sound like control.

It depends on the project. Either internal, where we define everything ourselves, or it is integration with the customer, where two companies form one team. And very often there are limitations on the tools, and on the processes, and on the working time. It does not reach extremes, but people must be available for communication, since teamwork is underway. At the start of the project, when there is an exchange of knowledge, as a rule, you should always be online.

These restrictions may not be on everyone, but only on those who communicate with the customer - team leaders, analysts. Developers and testers may have a more autonomous mode.

- When specialists work according to the model of expansion of teams, do they work according to the conditions of the company they are employed in?

These are joint terms and contractual obligations - us and the company. If we see that we can somehow change the processes, then we offer improvements.

- People often say that they are annoyed by frequent calls, meetings, meetings. Have you encountered this?

We have everything in this plan easier. There are an order of magnitude less meetings than in large companies, and I have not heard any complaints about this. Meeting managers have more. I have probably the most. The rest - only by necessity.

I am against meetings. If you can solve without them, then you need to solve without them. Only those who influence decisions should be called to meetings. The rest can be informed later. The amount of unnecessary communication is reduced by common sense.

- How do you monitor efficiency?

Tasks are set, approximate terms are stipulated. If the specialist is new in the team, then there may be intermediate checks. And those who have been working for a long time have more confidence. You can wait at least a week and know that in response you will not hear "I have been looking for a solution to the problem for four days."

- That is, the developer is given a tusk, in a week he comes up with a result, and what, how and when he did it doesn’t matter?

Yes. It all depends on how much trust the team leader has with him. If there is trust, then why not, let it go. Why control if you are confident in the result. When you can not find a solution, ask for help yourself. But if you are a liege lord - probably, you will not have questions every two hours, and you will not have to pull everyone.

We do not work with the junas, but not because we don’t like them. Just for udalenki need to have experience in commercial development.

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Hiring as sales

With partner Kirill at mitap in 2016

- In your articles, I saw dissatisfaction with how hiring was arranged in the companies that you saw.

Yes, I probably even had a personal insult. When I was looking for a job, I passed a lot of interviews, and saw huge drawbacks. I remember cases when I was even asked to fill in some kind of questionnaire. This is tin. You come, and you have no desire to continue to communicate.

Then you talk to a recruiter girl who has no idea about the business, what the company is doing, what kind of technology there is. And then you marinate, do not answer or write "you do not fit our company," although they did not even tell me about the company at the beginning of the interview.

In general, I remembered all this, and I decided that our recruitment department would be like a sales department. That is, candidates are potential customers. A lot of marketing processes can be transferred to the recruitment department.

At some point, I could not long achieve the formation of a unique value proposition for candidates, why they should work in our company. I realized that Eychary cannot formulate it, and if they cannot, then, probably, they cannot perform Eycharch functions either. Therefore, he wrote himself, and we have reduced the post of head of the HR-service. Now we only have recruiters. The operations director and development manager work very closely with them.

Recruiters have a clear task, they do not ask what is not needed. Communication with them does not cause negative emotions. I hope.

- That is their task to sell a job?

Sell ​​the company. The second task is to conduct a basic screening. First of all, on the subject of software skills. And ask simple questions to cut off those who know nothing.

- It seems to me that developers do not like it when theoretical questions are asked by those who do not understand them at all. They are interested to talk with the engineer.

This is yes, but engineers have their own tasks. There is a limit that they are willing to spend on an interview. Of course, I heard that many people want to come and immediately communicate with everyone, right up to the general director. But it is generally difficult to implement.

- What should be the perfect interview?

This should be an open conversation, where there is no stress. The candidate must be able to ask questions. The recruiter should tell about the company at the very beginning of the conversation in order to calm down and stand on one wave. Tell us how we work, what projects can be. He must answer the candidate's questions himself.

Then he must conduct the second part, which will show whether it is interesting for us to communicate with the person. This is all in one interview.

- And how many stages do you need to go through, for example, to a senior developer, to get into the company?

Primary communication with the recruiter, then a technical interview strictly on technology. After each stage the report is filled. We have a funnel where everything is automated. Responsible reassigned, and then comes the technical director of the company. He already talks more about the project. If this is ok, then the options are different. When the customer is the operating director, he communicates as follows. If not him, then I communicate.

It turns out four to five stages.

- People are not deterred by such an amount? It's a long time.

Probably scares someone. If we wanted to expand the interview funnel, it would be possible to simplify the requirements. But we do it consciously, understanding that we need ten percent of those who are looking for work. And few of them are ready to work by our standards. Searching for people is difficult - but it's not easy for everyone right now.

We are simplified by the fact that we are not geographically attached. The only thing with the project in the Moscow area will be difficult to work with Kamchatka.

- How long do these stages take?

We tried to reduce the time from the first contact to the time when we make an offer. Probably, I am here the main bottleneck. But we try to keep within two weeks. There have been cases and faster - if a high priority, we can handle this week.


Meeting in St. Petersburg in December 2017

- You are not worried that your company will be talked about with disdain - “this is just another outsourcing office”?

Let them talk. But this is not true, we have other projects. Let them show me other examples besides us, where companies were created from scratch, without investments and without diverting customers. I heard statistics that 90% of companies in Ukraine were created by taking clients away from employers.

If you do everything as we did - with a bunch of mistakes, wrong decisions, millions of lost money - then I find it hard to imagine how you can survive, go through this valley of death, without outsourcing at least at the start.

This gives both clients and the opportunity to form a team, and, albeit small, but profit. The guys who have been working for a long time have seen how the company is changing. And as projects appear that suit them better, we rotate and lead them to other projects. Maybe we will live to see the products.

- In ideal conditions, where it is not necessary to think about the survival of the business, according to personal feelings - is it better to have a product or an outsourcing?

I think three years were not wasted, I proved to myself that I can do it. But if you ask - to create another service company or product, then I will choose a product.