Aubrey de Gray is visiting Joe Rogan

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Joe Rogan : Well, we're on the air. First of all, thank you so much for coming, I really appreciate it.
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Aubrey de Gray : Well, thanks for inviting me, I have been waiting for this for quite a while.

Joe Rogan : Me too! I was glad to talk with you then in New York. How many, two years have passed, right? And it was fun. And I was a big fan of your work long before that and I consider you an amazing character. And I am glad that ... well, you got up early this morning, London time, at 8 o'clock here, in Los Angeles, that is, it turns out, we have 8 o'clock difference?

Aubrey de Gray : Yes. Eight o'clock difference.

Joe Rogan : Yes. You have been on your feet for quite a while, however. Not particularly useful for longevity, right?

Aubrey de Gray : Definitely so. People marked it. I think of all that I do, for sure, from the least useful things for me. And I never get enough sleep.

Joe Rogan : Eternal nedosyp, and you do not mind drinking, my friend ...

Aubrey de Gray : Well, maybe it benefits me, who knows ...

Joe Rogan : Really?

Aubrey de Gray : At least if moderately, as they say ...

Joe Rogan : If it is moderate, yes ... Well, here we are now drinking ...

Aubrey de Gray : Yes ...

Joe Rogan : Drop by Jack Daniels. Should help for colds? What do you think?

Aubrey de Gray : It helps me.

Joe Rogan : OK. It helps you, really? Is warming?

Aubrey de Gray : Definitely yes ...

Joe Rogan : If only you were comfortable. You are engaged ... - for those who do not know, Aubrey de Gray, you are a researcher at Cambridge, you are busy, for the most part, with the problems of aging, increasing life expectancy, if we talk about medical sciences ... on the front lines of this research.

Aubrey de Gray : Actually, first, I want to correct ...

Joe Rogan : Good.

Aubrey de Gray : I have not been associated with the University of Cambridge for a very long time.

Joe Rogan : How long?

Aubrey de Gray : Since 2006

Joe Rogan : Fucking Wikipedia ... Here, assholes ... From 2006, really, a long time ago.

Aubrey de Gray : Something like that, yes. Yes, in fact, as soon as we could find enough funding to pay me a full time, it became wiser for me, in general, to work on something else to pay bills.

Joe Rogan : So what is your organization's name now?

Aubrey de Gray : So. In general, we are a SENS Charitable Research Foundation based in Mountain View, California, and today we are at about $ 5 million a year, in terms of the research budget. That is, we, until now, are very small, but, I think, we spend them with considerable advantage.

Joe Rogan : And for those who are steaming, “What's wrong with his voice?” He caught a bit of a cold, ladies and gentlemen. That's why he drinks whiskey. I do not know how much it helps ... What is interesting happening now in terms of medical research regarding the extension of life? What is the most exciting thing for you now?

Aubrey de Gray : Probably the most fascinating thing is that there are many fascinating things. To truly understand the scope of medical research on aging, one must begin with the idea that aging is far from a single phenomenon. It is an aggregate, a system of interacting phenomena. And the problem will eventually be solved by medicine using the divide and conquer strategy - a set of interventions, each of which should work well enough for the whole system to work at an acceptable level in terms of delaying the deterioration of health.

Therefore, from my point of view - a person from the front line, so to speak, is simply fantastic, that there is always something, something that means a breakthrough happens every week, here and there. But, of course, these breakthroughs are often quite technical, things often happen that only experts will understand that these are, in fact, breakthroughs. Not that we double the life span of mice that week, for example. However, this is normal. In general, advanced technology is always being developed. And people who really need to understand, in other words, those who are engaged in research, who need to know about each other's results to determine what experiments to do next ...

This community is, in general, sufficiently uniform for such information to spread. Of course, I myself play a large role in this, besides curating the research conducted by our foundation. So going back to my initial statement ... There is no definite answer, but ...

Joe Rogan : This is a very interesting point, because ... How developed is the cooperation between different researchers all over the planet working on life expectancy technologies and medical sciences in this field?

Aubrey de Gray : This is, in general, a slightly different question. The answer to which is depressingly different. Separate areas, which, I think, all need to be developed to a certain level of efficiency, in order to give a certain result together, these separate areas are very united, and people in such areas communicate with each other. But between the regions is a completely different story. I had, from my very first steps in this area, and, definitely, during the last, say, ten or twelve years, I had to literally reduce these people among themselves. There is too much disunity, growing misunderstanding and unnecessary barriers between areas that, for some reason, do not think that they are meaningful to each other. And, in any case, I do not blame scientists for this.

This is due to the nature of financing. The fact is that everyone does not have enough money, and, therefore, in order to get what may be necessary, one has to focus on what they have already recommended themselves. This makes any possible interdisciplinary work extremely difficult. And already begun work with high risk. This really seriously slows down science and technology. That is - a tragedy. And everything, as it were, is up to date with what is happening, but no one knows what to do with it, in anybody’s interests to do something with it. That is, the whole system is rolled.

Joe Rogan : That is, a situation like the one when different pharmaceutical companies or who else are standing by, waiting for something to bet on. What can you invest in, saying that this is promising research, and we will do everything to make it profitable in the future. Since drugs, especially to finally become profitable, require a huge period of testing, research, and they eventually happen to cost millions and millions of dollars before the effectiveness of the product becomes clear.

Aubrey de Gray : Absolutely. And, again, this is not quite what I said earlier, although related to it. What I said earlier was about academic research, as such, of people relying on government funding in their work. The pharmaceutical industry or the medical industry as a whole has a different perspective, but, as it were, similar problems. Medicine is a tricky thing, and everyone wants to simplify it as far as possible, which causes the original prejudice against interdisciplinary research, against the strategy of "divide and conquer," which means applying more than one procedure at a time, to the same patient.

But, ultimately, we will have to come to terms with the need. And, in the pharmaceutical and medical industry, there are reasonable people, as in academic circles, but everyone, as it were, is getting used to the situation. It's just very difficult, for anyone, to be the first group, the first company, the first research group, to really do something new. That, as it were, will be a collective shift in the way of thinking, a kind of cultural transformation of the process itself.

Joe Rogan : So, is this actively being explored around the world? Or are there groups of intellectuals working on this, or ...?

Aubrey de Gray : Around the world, but yes, I am afraid, only groups. At the moment, so far, there is a tendency, an incredibly seductive tendency to return to what simply makes money quickly or speeds up the appearance of publications, regardless of their weight. In other words, does it lead to significant progress in the longer term? And, most importantly, to which I pointed out, it is ABSOLUTELY the biologically erroneous and pernicious idea that the diseases of old age, in a certain sense, are independent of aging itself. Absurd. Diseases of old age, this is all because of which people who were born a long time ago are ill, but that rarely affects them in their prime.

Everything happens as it is - the side effects of life. The side effects of having to live are accumulating wear and tear in the body over time. And this, too, is the only thing that anyone will say as a definition of aging itself. Therefore, we should not separate these two things, saying that these things are diseases, and those are not. So you can not do. And if we stop doing this, we will have a chance to actually understand how to influence this set of interrelated painful manifestations in the elderly so that it really works. We will stop trying to be too optimistic about the things that we decided to call diseases, and too pessimistic about those that we did not decide to call so. We can begin to realize that we can fight with all of them.

Joe Rogan : So you see aging itself as a kind of disease?

Aubrey de Gray : I would, in general, take a different path. I would say that it would be correct not to consider the so-called diseases of old age as diseases. Because, of course, there is a huge difference between the side effects of the life process, in the first place, and infections. Infection is what the concept of disease should be limited to. Well, infections and congenital diseases, let's say. Infections ... can, in general, be banished from the body. They can be cured. Effects on symptoms and extermination of pathogens. And an attempt to do the same with a certain side effect of life will obviously lead to nothing. If you just do not want to destroy life itself, that, in general, is completely different, right?

Joe Rogan : Yes ...

Aubrey de Gray : So, this is a conceptual problem. People think that illnesses like Alzheimer's disease, atherosclerosis or cancer, in fact, are not very different from tuberculosis. Complete nonsense. And because of this fundamental conceptual error, an incredible amount of money is spent incorrectly in the treatment of diseases of the elderly. With very minimal impact on these diseases.

Joe Rogan : That is, scientists, as it were, resigned that Alzheimer's is only a side effect of old age, and nothing can be done about it?

Aubrey de Gray : No, no! No, I'm not saying that they are humbled. They say it is a disease, and we have to CURE it!

Joe Rogan : And you have a different opinion. But I mean ... well.

Aubrey de Gray : That's the problem. They think they can cure it, separately. They think, oh, people get old, let's cure Alzheimer's disease.

Joe Rogan : So you say that we need to cure aging?

Aubrey de Gray : Exactly.

Joe Rogan : Good. What do you think will be the solution? Surely there are a lot of different ideas. What do you think will be the methodology for deciding which direction to go?

Aubrey de Gray : It is clear to me, already for at least 15 years, that the solution would be to repair the damage. What we need is to develop an intervention system, a set of therapies that restore the molecular and cellular structure and the interaction of the processes in the body of an elderly person to a state of approximately early adulthood. In general, this means things like replacing cells when the cells of the body die and are not automatically replaced by their division. Which means removing excess cells when they divide, although they should not. Or when they do not die, although they should. This means cleansing molecular waste if it accumulates because the body does not know how to get rid of it. How to break them down or out of the body. Everything is very simple, in fact. But it turns out that such thinking already sounds like a very large simplification, although this is a very solid structure for further identification, what needs to be corrected and how.

Joe Rogan : Do you think nutrition plays a role in this? Maybe you recommend a specific diet to improve the body's ability to heal on its own?

Aubrey de Gray : I, in general, do not do this. For two reasons. First, with regard to nutrition and lifestyle in general, everything that people can do today, I definitely think that there are many people who know more about it than me, and that means that if I become an expert in this areas, I can hardly achieve more than if I continue to spend my time as it is now.

The second reason is that it is rather depressing, but it is also important to mention that as far as can be judged, multiple testimonies say that such things are not enough for me, for most people. If you are unlucky, something has happened, and you are aging unusually fast, then everything is a little different. Especially if you are unusually fast aging in only one or two specific aspects. Then, perhaps, there are vitamin supplements, diets or lifestyle restrictions that significantly normalize the rate of aging, which is naturally good. But those of us who have an average rate of aging, and especially, just below the average, simply have no sense. Observations show that such interventions simply do not give you anything more, the body is already set up as acceptably as possible, and requires the development of much more subtle procedures, like those that our SENS research foundation is working on.

Joe Rogan : That is, things seem to get enough sleep, eat well - in fact, in fact, they only help until a certain moment?

Aubrey de Gray : They help, but very little, right.

Joe Rogan : And how much is this? Years 10 years of life on top or so?

Aubrey de Gray : Even 10, I think - exaggeration. I think we can talk about a year or two, if you're lucky.

Joe Rogan : Wow! A year or two? So, sour on, guys!

Aubrey de Gray : Here ... here is a good illustration of this. People, often in the rest of the world ... often laugh at the United States, at the fact that even though the United States spends a lot of money on medicine, a lot more per person than in any other country, and still, if you look at life expectancy , USA deep down list, 45th or something like that. Really very low. And people say - “Well, that’s just that ... health cannot be bought for money,” like that. But in general, much more important is found, if you look at the real numbers, not only on this table. I would like to ask, Joe, do you know about this?

Joe Rogan : Good.

Aubrey de Gray : What do you think, what is the difference between the life expectancy of the US population and the same indicator for the people of Japan, where is the highest life expectancy in the world?

Joe Rogan : Well, I would say, life expectancy in the United States is probably an average of more than 60 years, while in Japan it is probably more than 70.

Aubrey de Gray : Tell me the number, what's the difference?

Joe Rogan : 64 - 78, so go?

Aubrey de Gray : That is, say, the difference is 14 years?

Joe Rogan : Yes.

Aubrey de Gray : The answer is 4 years.

Joe Rogan : Four?

Aubrey de Gray : Four.

Joe Rogan : Just?

Aubrey de Gray : Four.

Joe Rogan : Not so much.

Aubrey de Gray : Exactly. I mean the same.

Joe Rogan : And four ... last four ... Really, the best years ...

Aubrey de Gray : Well, of course. Of course, the last 4 years ... And in Japan too ... The way to live for a long time is to stay healthy for a start, and then the period of decline is typically about the same, no matter how long the period of good health is before it.

Joe Rogan : So, in all these factors that people are trying to improve, such as surrounding themselves with those you love; communication with congenial; do what you like to do. Speaking about this, they generally talk about a small period of time, in any case?

Aubrey de Gray : I'm afraid so. I spend so much time emphasizing it and helping people understand, because ... If they don’t understand it, if they think they can fairly postpone the deterioration of their health, simply doing their best now, they would be correspondingly less optimistic. and less absorbed by these questions and help in the improvement and development of what is not yet in their power, just the very thing that I am working on. In fact, this is because the impact of what we are capable of today is so small that we have to feverishly develop the new.

Joe Rogan : What do you think will be the method to eliminate wear? I mean, how will this manifest in our life?

Aubrey de Gray : There are many different types of damage. And I was able to put forward a really solid, sound and understandable research program only because 15 years ago I found a way to classify a variety of similar types of damage into a much more manageable number of categories, just 7 categories. And in each category there is one universal intervention that may differ in details for different examples within the category, but only in details. That is, we are talking only about seven different types of damage repair.

For illustration, let me tell you about one or two of them. One type of wear is cell loss. Cells dying off and not automatically replaced by the division of other cells. This is the reason why we have Parkinson's disease - probably the best example, the most obvious example.And, Parkinson's disease occurs when in one of the parts of the brain called the substantia nigra, where there is a special type of neuron, called dopaminergic neuron. They die much faster than neurons in most parts of the brain, and, naturally, ultimately, they are not enough. Most of us lose only 20% of these neurons in old age. But, some people lose them a little faster, and can lose 70%, or 80%, towards old age. These people suffer from Parkinson's disease.

So, the question - “What is the approach to the elimination of damage?” The answer is, in general, obvious, and well known in this case. Namely - stem cell treatment. That's what stem cell therapy is. You enter into the body stem cells prepared in advance, so let's say they are configured to tend to divide and transform into cells that the body did not replace with their own. That is, we restore the number of cells in the tissues, the tissues begin to work again, the disease is defeated. And about 20 years ago, they began to try to do this, because they realized this. But it did not always work, only from time to time. And the main problem was that we did not know enough about how to prepare stem cells before being introduced into the body.

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: , ! Incredible!10 years! This is a relatively short time. Unless ... you are not 74.

Aubrey de Gray : Yes, yes, yes ...

Joe Rogan : So?

Aubrey de Gray : This is a short time. With many therapies, which, we believe, also need to be developed in order to fight other aspects of aging, I think everything is a bit more complicated ... And I think we can talk about 20 to 25 years. And even then, we are talking only, say, about 50 to 50 likelihoods of the like. For anything, for periods of more than a few years, it is obvious that the discourse on the time frame is extremely speculative.

I think it is our responsibility to transfer the right to guess to the general population, since the best guesses of the general population will be much worse, right? And you need to know, to have some kind of understanding, how close a certain goal is, to understand how much it costs to make a fuss so that this happens faster. If you think that before something else is a thousand years old, it will not be a priority to do it in just 990 years, right? That is, in many ways, why we have to talk about the time frame. But, yes, I think there is at least a 10 percent chance that we will not achieve this in a hundred years.

Joe Rogan : Wow! It's ... but ...

Aubrey de Gray : Like, nothing like that, huh?

Joe Rogan : Yes.

Aubrey de Gray : Since the chance of 50 to 50 is already enough to cost to fight.

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: I am used to approaching such things with a very open mind. I am not at all delighted with people talking about the obviously impossible. But, very often, when something initially looks obviously impossible, the more carefully you look, the more you realize that this can actually be very complicated. And this is a good example. Loading of consciousness ... The idea of ​​transferring human consciousness to another iron ... it is not at all obvious that this is impossible. But ultimately, there may be reasons why this cannot be done. But I think it’s much more important now that we can say that it’s very difficult. I think ... Yes, I would definitely say, in general, that I would put serious money, that the problem of aging will be finally solved by medical means - like what we do - long beforehow it will be solved by loading consciousness into the robot.

Joe Rogan : Well ...

Aubrey de Gray : However, such a moment. Like any sensible technologist, I know that I can be wrong. And, therefore, I am happy that there are people working in other areas. So, if their work turns out to be easier than it seems to me, and my work will be harder, and they will achieve their first, they will start to save lives that I could not. Here I do not mind.

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Therefore, the only real difference between the work of the SENS Research Foundation and everything that everyone else among medical researchers does is in the level of side effects. The fact that longevity, as a side effect of our work, can be significantly higher than the similar side effects we already know. But it remains a side effect. And, if we go back to the question of how long we WOULD LIKE to live. I do not know ... This is just a meaningless question! For me, the same thing is to ask, at what time would you like to go to the toilet next Sunday? We know that it is foolish to think about such a question. And this is stupid, because we know that we will have more information on the topic closer to the deadline, and we can act according to the information. And here - the same thing! No one makes decisions based on how long they were born. People, for the most part,make decisions as they grow older, based on how long, in their opinion, they are left to live. But this is because the amount of time which, in their opinion, they must live, is reduced.

But it will stop shrinking. If you have lived a long time, and you have a considerable amount of time ahead, your decisions will be based on more short-term considerations. If you want, on the opinions of others, and so on. When I am asked, I sometimes say, “Good. Remember the moment when you first slept ... ”

Joe Rogan : Oh, yeah!

Aubrey de Gray : Exactly. Yes.

Joe Rogan : It began ...

Aubrey de Gray : Imagine what you thought at that moment? Did you think, - Oh, God! Oh God, I have to get her to bed right now, because I have only sixty years left to live! So? , ? .

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