Conversation with an astronaut: on the management of the ISS, on the orbital Internet, and on the flight to Mars

The next part of our conversation with astronaut Pavel Vinogradov. This time let's talk about technology:
About reusable ships and rockets. About space debris and UFOs. About the danger in open space. About space suits. About the toilet. About water. About the closed cycle and station autonomy. About the ISS control system. About the orbital Internet. About the performance of consumer electronics in space. About space expansion. About "Gravity" and "Interstellar". About the flight to Mars.

The meeting with Pavel Vladimirovich took place thanks to the organizers of the Irkutsk Robotic Festival Robosib . Questions were asked by users of LiveJournal , Geektimes and subscribers of the group “ Open space ” Vkontakte.

Earlier we learned about the medical, biological and psychological details of life in space, and today the most voluminous and interesting topic is “Technique”.
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About reusable ships and rockets

What is your opinion on the prospects of reusable space systems?

I think sooner or later we will come to this anyway. Maybe not now, but in ten or twenty years. It is clear that the rocket technology will not become so cheap that it will be possible to shoot it like with a Kalashnikov machine gun, and not to count this money. I think there will be things associated with reusability.

And if it is more substantive to talk. It seems like PTK NP was declared as reusable, American Orion and Dragon ...



Yes, PTK NP is reusable. Reusability is associated primarily with thermal protection. In general, even today, our supposedly one-time “Union” - I'm afraid to make a mistake - but 40-45% percent is reusable.

In the sense that it can potentially be used again or is it already used?

We repeatedly use frames that are quite expensive. We remove from the returned ship. The hull is yes, it takes on shock loads and it is simply not profitable to make it reusable. But as for the units of onboard systems, electronic components, consoles. The cosmonaut's console flies 5-7 times. he flew in, we checked it, loaded a new math, put it on a new ship and it flies farther. The lodgements are our chairs ... The list is huge, nobody knows about it simply.

This is not secret information?

No this is not secret information, we are sending our American colleagues a whole list-memorandum on the reuse of ship systems and blocks. They say: “Yes, we agree. Come on, and with the song! ”

Those. you agree with them ...

Notify. A ship in this configuration: such a unit is used for the fifth time, such and such - in the seventh, such and such in the first, second ... tenth.

About space debris and UFO

A sore point is space junk. How do you think this is a serious problem?

This is a problem in terms of crew safety for the ISS. Yes, and in principle for spacecraft. We had cases when completely new geostationary satellites went out of operation, which were cut down just in a split second - the connection was broken and that's all. Evaluated the causes, and came to the conclusion that it was hit by some fragments. The problem is serious, the speeds are under 8 km / s, if the orbits intersect at least at an angle of 45 degrees, then the total speed is already 10-15 km / s. If the mass of garbage at least grams, then there is a threat of loss of tightness of the station.
There is a whole system that controls and prevents a collision not only of satellites, but of all large fragments in general: there are fragments and steps. Operatively in orbit tracked about 16 thousand objects.

They ask about UFOs, were there ... Did you manage to see any UFO in the form of space debris or in the form of ships of alien civilizations?

Once tried to see, but failed. This is a connected story with “Mir” - an American satellite flew past us, which is KH – 11 , lost.

He whistled with us with a difference of about one and a half kilometers. We were told: "Guys, you leave just in case in the ship, what if". The orbits were strictly intersecting, he went from north to south, and we walked across, 51 degrees, he had a polar orbit, and we naturally ... A satellite would have 12 tons, if it hit us, there would not even be a trace . When the MCC then asked us: “Guys, did you see anything?”, We say, “Guys, our speed is an American pole, well, about 12 kilometers per second, he would have flown even two kilometers from us ... This is not even an instant” . I watched satellites many times, I even tried to photograph them.



Higher or lower?

Basically higher. Especially when we go in the shade, but there are satellites that go to an altitude of 650 kilometers, and they always go in the sun. Here you can see them. Nothing like that ... Rubbish ... Well, we saw our rubbish when we lost a wrench or halyard at the exit, so it dangles the day, the second, the third, the fourth ... Because it flies away somewhere. There was nothing unidentified. Well, of course, extraterrestrial civilizations ...

Aliens, in general, did not find you.

I think that they are not such fools to fly to us, to the station and look at us. If they’ll lock them up from somewhere, it will be noticeable and far, far away.

About danger in open space

What dangers await an astronaut during a spacewalk?

The security system at the exit is a whole science. There is a special regulation, and it is very strictly enforced. The orientation of our station is now supported by the so-called. power gyroscopes - gyrodynes that stand on the American segment. In the “World” we had these too. These are powerful flywheels, promoted, when they are controlled, they affect the station and it deviates. Their problem - in the accumulation of the kinetic moment - is unwound to the maximum speed, to the critical moment when they can become uncontrollable. Then we introduce the procedure of “unloading gyrodynes”. We have to exert an external impact on the station, but at this time we are starting to deploy gyrodynchiki to the right place. This external influence is the work of our rocket engines in the Russian segment of the station.
Now the usual spacewalk is 6-8 hours. An hour and a half before the release, we try to carry out the procedure of unloading the gyrodynes, but there are situations when unloading is necessary, and people are still in work overboard. The engines at the hydrazine station are a very toxic type of fuel. In any form the crew can not be in the area of ​​the engines. Therefore, either we ask the crew to leave the danger zone, or plan in advance to exit so as to prevent people from entering the danger zone.



There are quite difficult situations where work is required directly in the area of ​​propulsion systems, and around them there is even a raid of unburned or partially burned fuel. Then there is a procedure for careful monitoring in order not to bring on board the remnants of propellant components. We wipe the gloves, inspect ourselves, so that God forbid not bring it to the station.
There are other dangerous moments, most often associated with the reversal of mechanisms, in particular solar cells. We work a lot in the area of ​​the rotary device of the battery. There you can set a ban on reversing the batteries, or carefully plan the work of the crew so that they are not under attack. Dozens of people in the MCC work during the exit.

About space suits

An interesting technical question: in spacesuits because the cooling of the body is provided by the evaporation of water? They ask: is the reactive force felt from the evaporator?

Of course not. First, our evaporator has micron gaps. Evaporation of water goes inside the heat exchanger. It is two-circuit: water is supplied to the heat exchanger, which evaporates and cools the internal circuit coil, in which water moves, which cools the cosmonaut's body. Secondly, the evaporator is cylindrical, it evaporates practically in all directions, and there is no direction in which it would push.

And all suits are cooled by evaporation? And our and American? There is no alternative? I am now trying to remember if there is an example of the use of such vaporizers in science fiction films. We are shown in the movies that it is enough to take a balloon with oxygen with you and that is enough.

This is an elementary ignorance and ignorance of physics. For cooling in space, you can use radiators of the radiation type, like at our station, for example. There is no evaporation. There is one internal circuit: hot water pipes are laid in a panel that is coated with a special coating with a specific reflection / absorption coefficient. This is a radiation type of cooling, but, unfortunately, in order to dump large heat fluxes, and in a spacesuit they are large — a person emits a lot of heat — you have to drag huge radiators with an area of ​​several square meters ...

More spacesuit?

Definitely a lot more. It does not suit us.

And the water flow is big?

We refuel 3.5 liters at the exit of 8 hours. And almost a liter with a little remains on completion.

About toilet

Tell us about the delicate topic of space life ...

Any toilet work?

Yes.

I always tell children: guys, we have everything the same as on Earth, just a little bit more cunning. On Earth, everything that happens on the toilet is transported further by water, for such a simple reason that it flows down. In space, naturally, it will not flow anywhere, so everything is transported by air. There is a fan at the exit, and all this sucks, captures and it goes into the appropriate containers.



What about containers?

Thrown out. Solid waste is collected in a container. There are such rubber glasses ... You take it off, they slam it, drop it into a container and store it there. Everything is covered with lids, ventilated, so that nothing smells, the air is filtered and returned to the atmosphere. With liquid fractions more difficult. They are also transported by air, but there is such a gas-liquid medium. Therefore, there is a special installation called “separator separator”, which separates the liquid fraction. This is a conventional centrifuge, tricky drum, something like a washing machine. It rotates, the liquid is pressed against the walls, it is sucked off by suction. Further becomes more cunning. After all, any urine has the ability to decompose, releases gas. We add a special preservative to it, a rather scary poisonous thing, it is in special sealed cylinders. Add a little preservative and a little water - diluted and folded in an airtight container. As soon as it is filled, we remove it and delete it.

And is removed overboard?

In the truck. And everything burns. Previously, the “World” was a more cunning, more complicated scheme. Because there, as soon as such a canned mixture accumulated, we launched it for processing. There was an installation that processed this mixture into distilled water. From 20 liters of such liquid, up to 800-900 grams of solid waste were obtained: mainly salts, i.e. such fractions that are inseparable. They were cleaned. 18-19 liters of distilled water returned to circulation. Now this is not. Americans two years ago launched their installation. It works for them, but it cannot process the entire volume of waste.

About water

What is the reason for the refusal of such a more closed loop? Is it disgust or what?

We decided that it is easier to carry water. Quite intensive flights of cargo ships, which in addition to water carry a lot of things. And here is the logic: if you carry a lot of everything else, then why not bring water?

It is usually considered that every kilogram is worth its weight in gold, and therefore everything is diligently saved ...

Well saved ... Here, too, such a relative savings, because in order to recycle the urine, we need quite respectable kilowatts of electricity.

It's still electricity, not extra mass.

Energy is also a cost. These are power units, these are solar batteries, they must be rotated, rotated ... That is, these are not small expenses either. Although of course, you need to do a closed loop, or rechargeable, but not so often. The Americans did not go for it because they did not want to depend on our affairs. Because unfortunately, those clerks who sit in Roscosmos and NASA, they love to consider what is called the "balance of deposits", who, what, how much, invested in the ISS. They begin to bargain, so they say you are a kilogram of water for us, and we have a kilowatt of electricity for you ... That is, this is no longer a technique, but a policy. Although also correct, I guess. Therefore, we do not force the astronauts to drink the water that comes out of the TMS, from this urine regeneration system, just to take and drink it. Although you can safely drink it without any problems. True distilled water, it is quite harmful, salt removes and does not fill. Therefore, we prepare the drinking water ourselves, we have the appropriate systems that, from distilled water, make us normal. And at the station there are several varieties of water that never mix.

Was it on “Mira” or on ISS?

And on the “World” and the ISS. Because, for example, distilled water is needed to replenish oxygen from water, otherwise everything else during electrolysis only starts to spoil our life. Drinking such water is harmful, so you need to do it drinking. Drinking water saturated with salts, trace elements, again, for the production of oxygen is definitely not suitable. There is technical water, it can in principle be used as drinking water, but its shelf life has gone out, and it is generally drinking, but by storage time it is already out of range. We allow it for technical needs. Water is probably the most valuable.

About the closed cycle and autonomy

In principle, if you think how closed the cycle is on the ISS?

I do not know ... Not closed. We have replenished reserves of nitrogen, oxygen, and all of this is transported from the Earth ... It is relatively closed. It is clear that we do not inflate the station with nitrogen once a week. Having inflated as necessary, having blown such ... Oxygen is consumed by the crew, CO2 is emitted, then there are corresponding chemical processes and installations that make oxygen again from CO2. Here is this piece, maybe closed. But since there are losses, and the efficiency of these plants is not infinite, it is clear that oxygen must be added. These are the things. And to say that we are absolutely closed loop - not now.



On the “World” was isolation higher?

Above. Because it was not possible to deliver trucks so often.

I don’t know if this played any role, but when the stations started, when astronautics turned towards the stations, they also declared as a training session for long-term settlements in orbit, and the need for a closed cycle was originally laid down.

Yes. But then we ate a lot of all sorts of trouble. We did not know how to manage such objects very well. To control, I mean, from Earth. Therefore, they lost one Salyut, the second Salyut ... These were ground control errors. Then we almost lost another couple of stations, because there were mistakes of the crews. And then the management said: "Ale guys, end this disgrace, so that it will not happen again." And because of this, the MCC began to take on the lion's share of control. That is, the control loop now without the control center is unreal in general. On the one hand, for the MCC, this was good, the whole ground control system, a huge organization, dozens of organizations grew. Ground station tracking and processing. What is bad? OK good. We receive salaries. Several times we raised the question of returning to this task, to the autonomy of the flight. And now, when annual flights are being prepared, we again say “Guys, come on!”. Not really, but as we play. Because you will not play an autonomous flight. Every day, several thousand teams leave the earth for the station. But the reception of telemetry there in general. Americans generally have a continuous stream of information. Therefore, we propose to make such autonomy, at least for the crew. “Let's play, let the MCC play up, perform its functions so that the crew does not know this, and accordingly assign some tasks so that the crew solves it itself, but the MCC would spy on it.” This is a very interesting task in terms of working off autonomous flight. This is a different management philosophy, everything else. But scary. Especially to the chiefs who are in charge of this: “Yes, we know you, you are educating there, and we answer.” Therefore, I do not know, maybe we will push through this idea.

Then the astronauts will have a high level of employment, there will be no time to be engaged in experiments.

No, why. That is, you can simply organize it. Another thing is that the station itself, all its onboard systems are now made in such a way that they are not designed for autonomous flight. For example, to change the mode of operation of onboard systems - this is a whole complex of onboard commands needed. For the Earth it is easier, operators are sitting there and all those commandos remember, know, know how to do. The sequence of issuing commands is very important. And the crew very often do not even have good means of issuing commands. That is, all this is very sloppy issued. Therefore, this is the problem. We need a completely different interface, between the iron and the crew. And it is not.

And on the world there were more abilities for autonomy?

Yes.

It turns out that the ISS is more comfortable for people, but the “World” ...

... more stupid (laughs)

Well, I mean more adapted for existence independently of the Earth.

Of course “Mir” was also tied to Earth be healthy.

About the ISS control system

There was a question about this: compare the “World” and the ISS, what is the difference, advantages, differences.

There is a difference, and in the onboard systems, and in anything. The ISS is a completely different control system, completely digital. There are computers, by the way made in Germany.

That is, there is a certain central processor?

There are three cars there, and in each machine there is a so-called tetrahedron, that is, four processors in one block, and there are three such units.

And they are working on different tasks? Or just backup?

No, they are working on different ones. We have such a digital computer - a central computer, there is a TVM - a terminal computer complex. In general, a terribly ramified, computer network structure is now implemented. The Americans there are generally there, the so-called modems. In fact, for Americans, every modem is generally its own computer.Therefore, it is huge ... The Americans if you just count the computer, these MDMs, well, there are three hundred of them. We probably have pieces under 80–90. Constantly working 16 laptops, which we have at the station, in our segment. Americans have about twenty pieces. Laptops are only terminals for central computers, the digital computer has no keyboard, no screen, it only turns the brains on. The same terminal computers. It does not have any means of communication, so the laptop is its interface. Here is a branched structure.



That is, with laptops, you can still lead some commands?

Yes of course!There are thousands of them. Tens of thousands.

Are they called modems because they are in communication with the Earth?

No, because they communicate with each other. MDM is generally a multiplex-demultiplexer channel. That is, it receives, transmits, accepts, transmits. He has some small programs that perform a small function, that is, he accepted, must for example translate into another format, issue a bunch of commands and issue to another computer. And the other computer already does not understand anything at all, no codes, only command execution. Well, such a system.

[ More about laptops from a NASA engineer ]

About the orbital Internet

And is there free Internet access? Can I go to facebook or write there by mail?

Can.But the internet is so weird. Visually, it is like the Internet, that is, normal pages and all that. But there really are two walls. There is an onboard server that is connected directly to your laptop, then it transmits your requests to the appropriate MDMs, then it is all shuffled into the satellite radio commands, transmitted to the satellite, the satellite transmits to Houston. In Houston, again, you do not go straight, you dump everything on the firewall that starts cleaning you. From the Earth only units, operators that sit in the US or our MCC, can get to it. No one else can get to us. The only exception is our mail. Mail is also very tricky. You send it to me to the address, that is, you send it to NASA mail, it is checked accordingly, there the firewall in the MCC transmits and so on.

But check how physically read or just Trojans and the like?

No, there is a very powerful anti-virus protection of course. Very powerful. And so, I do not know. Rarely, probably, they read our letters, but why read them? Well read, yes, there is a special person who reads. Just because it would not have passed some official things. Personal - please. Service - through other channels.

This information is not closed, you can write about it?

Yes, you can probably. Usually, we, the crew notify specifically before the day, which will be checked. I do not know, probably, in NASA it is open, the devil knows. I did not think about it. That is, the Internet is special there, we will say so. Although I, for example, can get out, but not on all sorts of pages. I just tell them in advance. This is a long download via a repeater. Therefore, in order to speed up, they ask: “Guys on what pages will you climb?” And they prepare them in advance. We go to the pre-connected, proven pages on the Internet. And of course the video is sent, all kinds of news downloaded. This is usually done at night, when the crew sleeps, when the communication channels are not loaded. At night, we are asked to disable our mail, because if my mail is connected, they will not fit anywhere and will not load anything to me. They just can not take control:if a person has mail enabled, they cannot get in there.

Enabled? You mean, you just need to log out?

Yes, you get out of it, and they intermeddle themselves and begin to load you letters.

About the performance of consumer electronics in space The

guys asked about laptops that work at the station. No radiation problems? Maybe their lifespan is shorter?

They are regularly changed. There, of course, laptops selected special T61. It is, in general, made so on a fairly good processor. But on leptopah not go tasks critical for management or critical for safety stations. Well, dead and died.

Those. as you said - the terminal.

Yes, dead, and there is always a stock of them there. There are 40 of them in work for sure. And also in the ZIP there we have [the ZIP is "spare parts and accessories", probably speech about a warehouse]. There are separate power supplies. They are their own - converted. They require forced ventilation, otherwise they will burn in half an hour. There is always a supply there, hard drives ... In this regard, all laptops are 100% terminal devices. No major challenges. There were special leptop, managing, for external payload, for science, but this is not critical.

This is a question from IT people who are just interested in this interaction of iron with the cosmos.

They are poured regularly. Rare-rare lives long.

What most often fray?

I can not even say that the first is flying. Likely, screens. Particles pierce them, break through. Well, the screen, to hell with it, in the holes like a sieve: the blue and red pixels shine, well, God bless him. Processors fly rarely. Likely, basically disks fly or disk controllers.

Because of weightlessness?

Not.in zero gravity, they just work very well.

Hard ordinary just?

Yes on terabyte. In zero gravity there is no load on the bearings. Turning around and spinning.

Those. even better at it?

Of course.So no critical tasks for laptops do not solve. Where they are standing, for example, on receiving radio messages, you can always send a radio message through different channels. Through the Americans, for example. We have there three channels of independent transmission of information. Well, and in the end, if he is bent over there, he pulled it out, put another. I loaded the hard drive - go ahead.

Winchesters there it turns out separately stand?

There are different configurations, and such, and such.

How much is the lifetime of a laptop?

Probably a year for sure. I do not know.I will not invent.

And there are mobile phones, smart phones, tablets?

The tablets are full. Now everyone has 2 to 3 tablets.

And how do they work?

Absolutely calm. We have now generally come to that, that there is wi-fi, there is a fairly good stable network. Any applications that are roughly associated with a laptop are quietly loading. I put it in my pocket and flew. And anything is loaded on it, there is cinema, music, radiograms, onboard documentation. Pretty comfortable and good stuff.

And, again, on interaction with radiation, and weightlessness, how do they work?

The expedition is enough for the eyes. We usually send new ones with each crew every six months.

Those. each with their flies and flies?

In principle, we must dispose of them, but someone throws someone away. The tasks are different, so we load different mathematics into tablets, for different crews. Then there are some wishes, priorities for the crew. Those.in order not to ship something through our communication channels, it is cheaper and easier for us to download and do on the ground, to check. And naturally all sorts of things related to viral affairs are very tight control. So that there was no such thing as dragging the virus into the network, he went anywhere. But control networks, those that are directly involved in managing the station, are simply not connected. We have separate networks that are not physically connected in any way. Therefore, in theory, it is possible to add viruses to our local terminal networks, but not control networks.

Do you have cell phones?

What for?they don't work there.

This is understandable ...

Even the GPS does not normally plow.

I thought he worked there. After all, the satellites put the same GPS receivers.

No, we have our normal space GPS sensors with antennas there. 5 antennas. Those.square and mid antenna. Because there is a completely different math, because the relative speed of movement is very different. On Earth, it is regular and constant. Maybe the planes are just different, and even then compare 8 km / s (28 thousand km / h) or 1 thousand km / h plane flies. We should have other algorithms. Ground GPS is a fairly narrow range of possible parameters. I mean civil, ordinary. The military there is everything else.

About space expansion

Here is an interesting question, is humanity going into space, or is it still too hostile for us?

Come out in a sense without everything?

No, I think this refers to the possibility of some kind of autonomous settlements, or large stations.

Yes, of course, where we go! (laughs)

About "Gravity" and "Interstellar"

About "Gravity" ask: Your opinion?

Gravity - movies?

Yes.

I do not want to offend. Good camera work. Good work associated with all sorts of stupid effects, as they are shown. But in fact - complete nonsense. In general, this is an absolute deception, nothing is close, not that this, there is nothing interesting. That is, everything is different there. Absolutely different. But there are elements there, of course. Now they have learned to remove weightlessness. All this is clear that the props, all this model stuff.
We just performed the Dutch experiment, on “The World” ... Well, the experiment was very interesting, of one company that wanted to capture the real dynamics of a person's movement in weightlessness. We hung up a bunch of markers, all this was illuminated with stroboscopes, filmed simultaneously with four or eight cameras, all this was then processed mathematically. As a person grabs the rail, as it unfolds ... It was 97, they processed it all, did good math, and then put the image of any Hollywood actor, absolutely anyone on this skeleton. Therefore, no, “Gravity” I did not like.

And the second after - “Interstellar”.

Well, there is a little bit ... Actually, this is not even about space, this is pure fantasy, nothing more. There's even nothing to talk about ...

There's a docking space scene.

A little bit, of course, everything is not so dynamic, everything is done more slowly. We never fly with such twitching. But, probably, yes, docking there is the most plausible, in terms of docking with such a certain operated object. I do not know. Professionals would appreciate it at C grade. Maximum.On C grade with a minus.

Professionals in the field of space?

Well yes.

About the flight to Mars

If we are talking about very fantastic questions - would you agree to fly to Mars, perhaps at one end?

And what is the meaning of what is?

Put a flag, prove that Earthlings can.

So what?They can, without question, there is already so much iron on Mars lying around.

That people, and that iron.

So what?Flew there one way, and then what? Arrange a solemn funeral? With a dirge? All people will cry and cry when the oxygen runs out? Well hello.

Now there is a Mars One project, about which they talk a lot in the press, although all the professionals ...

They also asked me ... I say, and why do you need Mars? Practice it out, go to Everest, look, will you stay there? "No, well, how is it here, here is near, and someone else can, and Mars is one hundred and twenty million." I say, in ten years, some eccentric will arrive, come and say, “X * rney, you are engaged, Uncle Pasch”.

That is, you are not a supporter of the space race for achievements.

No, the race, it should be. We just lost ... You see, as soon as we went into such a mercantile-monetary society, we immediately stopped fantasizing, replaced our fantasies with fantasy. And they immediately stopped thinking about solving some beautiful tasks, immediately began to think, “What are we going to have from this?” Yes nichrome you with this will not have knowledge. What do you have from the Hadron Collider? Which costs much more than the whole space program for today? What exactly do you have? Nothing.But there are people there who understand that the knowledge they get can shoot off in a hundred years. And after two years can shoot. Here is the same thing. Why the hell are you flying into space? We fly into space for knowledge.

So all the same, you need to fly to Mars or not?

Of course.

And if you don’t flag, then why? For knowledge?

How can you learn to ride a bike? Just sit down and ride it. That's all.How can you learn to fly far? Just take and fly. With the expectation to go back. Nothing else. And the very good programs were in “Energia”, painted when, in 96, the heavy martian ship TMK was going to send to fly to Mars, go to Mars orbit, spin there one month, and go back to Earth. And not just to fall to the Earth, but to enter the trajectory of a flight to the Earth, that is, to go into a near-earth orbit. What is not a problem then? Let it be not 800, even 200–300 tons. But today, to work out the withdrawal from Earth's orbit, to work on Mars, to go back ... there is another energy needed. Looking for other engines. We need a long flight with a constant low load. Than not a problem. Anyone ever? After all, we had the program "Sail", unfolded the same awesome solar designs.But it turned out that they are so ugly behaving there, fluttering for a very long time. Here are these things to work. That is, in fact, the tasks for near-earth flight are higher than the roof. And if we set the goal “Guys, in 5–7 years, we have to send the ship to Mars, there we need to work out and return again to Earth’s orbit”. And that is all - navigation, communications, command lines, whatever you want!



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