Do not teach the child, help him learn.

Sugata Mitra is a scientist, teacher, visionary in the world of education. His successful experiments in teaching children in poor Indian quarters inspired the writer Vikas Swarup to create a novel, after which the Oscar-winning drama "Slumdog Millionaire" was shot.

Mitra develops an approach that is difficult to imagine in the traditional education system, and calls it "School in the clouds": give your child a computer with the Internet and do not interfere - he himself will understand the theory of relativity with other children.
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The professor shared the idea at the TED conference and became one of the most popular speakers in recent years. He received a million dollars for his performance and created the “School in the Clouds” with this money.

Colleagues often and sharply criticize the concept of the teacher, require more scientific evidence of its effectiveness. The professor accepts constructive criticism, but in one is adamant: the traditional school is hopelessly outdated and it must be radically changed if we want to live not in the past, but in the future.

SciOne : What is most important, in your opinion, today a child should know about the world and man? What should I teach him first?

Sugata Mitra : You said “know,” but I'm not sure that today is the main thing. As a child I was taught that it was important to know things, to keep everything in my head. If you ask someone today about something, they will give you an answer, if the person knows him, and if he does not know the answer, then a person of my generation would say: “I don’t know,” but a new generation will answer to another: “Wait, now ...”.

SciOne : ... "I'm gonna go"?

S. Mitra : Yes. I think we need to find a middle ground: what can be remembered and what can be “carried with you in your pocket.”

SciOne : Do you think that there is a certain minimum of knowledge from different disciplines necessary for every person? Perhaps, quite a bit, maybe a lot less than was needed before, but still some basis, base.

S. Mitra : Our knowledge and memory is largely beyond our control, our brain decides what needs to be memorized and what to learn. Therefore, I believe that it is not up to us to decide how much we need to know. This is decided by our brain, unconsciously it will save what it needs. What I mean? - that the child should be able to answer questions. The difference of the current generation is that the ability to find the answer does not necessarily depend on knowledge, but it is important to be able to look for it. If the child does not know how, there is reason to worry. Therefore, I would ask the child: “How cheaper is it to get from Moscow to St. Petersburg?” And the child can say: “Can I call my dad?” - he will call and give me an answer. In my opinion, this is normal.

SciOne : But this is a simple question. There are complex issues that cannot be quickly found on the Internet in two minutes. If we are talking about complex ideas and ways of knowing, for example, cognitive distortions or something else, maybe these aspects should be paid attention to by teachers ... And from here comes another question: should the knowledge of a child be directed at all?

S. Mitra : There is no definitive answer. If we talk about complex issues that make you think, when Google does not help and there is no ready answer - children need to ask such questions so that they can understand that there are many points of view that this is the basis of the solution. I mean, this does not need to be taught, because this will be your approach, and they must come to their own. And most of the time in my work, I see that it contributes to a deep understanding of the issue and more interest than when you say: “I will show you how to”.

SciOne : But you can not give instructions, but simply to acquaint with questions that the child can not find ...

S. Mitra : Of course, this is important.

SciOne : ... Getting familiar with questions should be part of education.

S. Mitra : This is very important, you have touched the very essence. Children are curious, they ask questions, and we should encourage this, throwing new questions to them. If you ask: "Why are trees, leaves green?", Then it will be a good question - the child will read what it is because of chlorophyll. And now ask: “Why is green? Why hasn’t nature taken red or blue? ”Is already more complicated. And you don’t have to know the answer yourself, do not worry if you say: “Listen, I don’t know myself”. But children will search, they will learn and will come to more difficult things. I emphasize, it is the plural: they themselves. Cognition must occur collectively, because together they begin to discuss.

SciOne : Are you afraid of technological singularity?

S. Mitra : Not at all afraid. I am not Ilon Musk and not Stephen Hawking, who says that artificial intelligence will put an end to humanity, as we know it (as if this is something terrible). We are changing with nature. Only this time, everything is different: we manage this change. For the first time in the history of evolution on this planet, we manage it. The only species that manages its evolution. He does not know where he is going, but he still controls. So why should I be afraid of AI? I salute him - he will be better than us. If not, it will disappear. And if it is better, then we will leave. Because they must give way.

SciOne : If we talk about education, do you see a place for teachers and teachers in the future? How do you think teachers can prepare for the future today? Does this profession have a chance to survive in the world of the future?

S. Mitra : Not in the same form in which they exist today. I do not know whether they will be called teachers and I don’t know how much time will pass before the cars start asking questions. So far they can not. Questions are asked by people and so will be some time. What about the teachers? - they help students to ask new interesting questions.

SciOne : You say that children do not need to be taught facts, no need to be taught at all, we should tell them about the issues, encourage interest. But what about the skills and methods of knowledge, the selection of information? How to critically perceive it? How do children communicate with each other? We can say that practice is needed, guidance (in my opinion, this is needed) ... What kind of skills and abilities are needed?

S. Mitra : In my work, I was surprised to find that the ability to cooperate and the ability to hear others come by themselves if you allow children to solve issues on their own. I call it the Self-Organized Learning Environment (MTR). Skills appear as a by-product. I saw how children change: attention deficit, inability to speak, pugnacity, loudness, it all went away in such an environment, and the same child listened attentively to the other: “What did you find? No, this is not the site, I will show you a good one. ” I think children can acquire these qualities themselves. Yes, you can be with them and make sure that they do not push, but even this, as I found out, is optional. They stop as soon as they realize that pushing to nothing results. I think that it is necessary to involve the child’s intellect, in the existing system it is not at all involved. Do this - and much will come by itself. Homo sapiens was born a thinker. We love to think. Sometimes the system prevents us from doing this - we are told: “Be careful! What are you thinking ?! ”, and this brings the most harm.

SciOne : You mentioned your research and therefore I want to ask, what other educational studies other than your own inspire you? What new ideas, what facts of scientific pedagogy, works and works are in tune with your views?

S. Mitra : Very many and some of them are surprisingly simple. I once heard from one person ... Osborne (I forgot his name ... he is from New Zealand), he spoke very simple things about the architecture of educational institutions: large windows are always good. With large windows, the quality of attention grows: how much light is in a class, how much sound, all of these are environmental factors that affect children's learning. The situation should be liberated. In the industrial era, everything was the opposite - right angles and lines, no windows ... It needs to be changed.

SciOne : Do you think there is a need for an institution such as a school where people study together? Or can it be done in other places: at home or in other institutions? Do you need big changes here?

S. Mitra : We all went to school for one reason only (if we are talking about childhood) because of friends. We go to school to see friends and this is unchanged. We need a safe space, where we have support and where we behave naturally, where we can meet friends - this is above all. Do they learn with this? In my opinion, this is secondary. If you inspire them, they will learn anyway if you use the “Ask a question and leave the children alone” method. Small children, if you leave them alone with a question, do not idle, they are looking for a solution, discuss, and now google. I do not think that schools will disappear, they will remain a place for communication, a place for meetings. At least in the near future.

SciOne : Question from the release partner - the Contribution to the Future Charitable Foundation:

Do you constantly advise praise and encourage children while they are learning, and are there any secrets, how to do it right? For example, is it necessary, with the help of praise, to try to create a situation of competition among children?

S. Mitra : I'm not a fan of contests. Let me give an example: I was in an alternative school (in a very good school), in New Delhi, in India — my son studied there. And they had a sports day. Like any parent, I, seeing him with a reward, exclaimed: “Oh! What did you win? ”, And he answered:“ I ran a cross. ” I asked: “You came first?”, But he did not understand and was surprised: “What does this mean? Everyone who started and reached the finish line received medals and so did I. ” And I seriously thought about what is more important: who will come first or who will reach the finish line?

This example, in my opinion, helps to understand why competition among children is not the best thing. This is useful if you prepare soldiers for them, but if you make ordinary citizens out of them, then I think it is more important to teach them to help other people succeed. After all, if we all did that, we would not have to compete.

SciOne : What do you think, at what stage should we get rid of the learning process? And if the institute of the school remains, then up to what age should the children attend it and when is it better for them to enter the real life?

S. Mitra : First of all, your question implies that the school is out of real life.

SciOne : I agree, but this is a figure of speech.

S. Mitra : I guess she is still in the real world and she should be part of life. What age to start? - I do not know, maybe in two or three years. Which one to leave? - I do not understand this question. I recall a metaphor: life is a journey, and head is your luggage. And for the first seventeen years this hiking suitcase is closed. Your clothes, underwear, camera - everything is locked inside. The lock is closed and when you turn seventeen - all, now you can go on a life path, use all the content.

Such a world no longer exists. You will not need this case in a couple of years. Then the question is: why collect it at all? Why not say that during your life journey you put everything you need into this case at any time you need it? You are at school all your life. Why even limit access to this resource?

SciOne : Another question from the release partner - the Contribution to the Future Charitable Foundation:

If I understand correctly, your approach implies a personal educational path for each child. And it is determined by the desires and motivation of the student. Can there, then, be any criteria, standards? How, then, to generally assess the development of the child?

S. Mitra : I'm not sure that we need to evaluate someone's progress. A child is not a building that you design and build. But many do so, they say: "You have to become like this", like a building. A child is like a plant, a tree. All trees grow in their own way: there are no two branches that grow the same. Does it bother us? What do we want? We want a healthy tree that will give good color, fruit and so on. Watering, some fertilizer ... and it grows by itself! I think people are concerned too.

SciOne : We do not rate, we do not evaluate, but we observe and give feedback to the child - that's what matters, as I understand it. It is important for children, for their learning, in terms of what they want to become better in. Do I need and how to do it?

S. Mitra : Difficult question. But I would say this: yes, feedback is necessary. How do kids get feedback while playing? - from each other. Sometimes in a rather rigid form: “This is terrible, you are doing wrong!”. In teaching, feedback is sometimes based on punishment (“It’s no good. Do better!”). Sometimes I experiment with other styles, in the sense that the child did something, for example, didn’t draw very well, and some corrections suggest themselves - you can ask him (or even the whole group): “What makes this drawing better?” and someone will say: “Oh, if we transfer this line ...”, but do not allow other children to correct it. You are contacting the author of the picture: “Listen, how do you like this option? Will you try? ”- and he tries. And then you turn to the class and everyone says, “Yes, much better.” I think it's best to give such feedback than to say: “You have bad colors.” You allow children to improve work, and not just criticize.

SciOne : Life outside the school is much more complicated. When a child enters adulthood, he usually has to become part of a system, for example, a corporation or a state. How can this creature grown in the spirit of freedom, as you say "tree", survive in real life?

S. Mitra : I hope that the world you are talking about as “present” will be created more and more by machines. No matter what kind of work a machine does — it is not a tree, it is designed. The work of a free person will be creativity and corporations understand this. Today, they trust creativity to a very small number of people, but I think more and more companies will encourage creativity in people, as opposed to routine. So my answer is yes, such a free, unique tree can blossom in a corporation if it is placed in the right environment.

SciOne : What do you think about projects in which children manage the school themselves? The so-called "democratic schools"?

S. Mitra : I was in such schools and I was acquainted with the gentleman who created one of them - Jacob Hekt. Very clever.

SciOne : Does it work?

S. Mitra : Yes, it works. But this does not mean that I fully agree with this.

SciOne : Why?

S. Mitra : The thing is. It may be strange for you to hear it from me, but if a five-year-old child is going to cross the road and cars are going there, will self-help help him? - not. What do we have to do? - you need to take it, pull it away and say: “Never do that again.” This is not what I usually say, but there are situations in which it is necessary to give clear rules. If you are sure of what you are doing, and if it meets the three principles of education - Joy, Health and Benefit - if you are sure that you are developing some of this, do not hesitate, but act. You must say, "Do not do this."

SciOne : Another question from the release's partner - the Contribution to the Future Charitable Foundation:

And what else can you learn on your own - without a living teacher?

S. Mitra : Hard to say. If you look at animals, they learn everything themselves, with a minimum of intervention. Do you know this old parable about how birds are taught to fly chicks? - they push them out of the nest.

SciOne : But there are animals that teach how to handle things, for example, crows, chimpanzees - they teach.

S. Mitra : Yes, definitely. Also dolphins. I think, if you continue the thought, this is a time saving, that's all. You can learn a lot by yourself, just sometimes it’s too long to learn for yourself, so parents do it. But you must tell the child: “I am not teaching you this because you cannot do it yourself — you can, it’s just too long. I will show, do you mind? ”- and most will agree. You must explain the reason why you are commanding. Usually they do not. I often heard the opposite say: “Do not do this!”. The child asks: “Why?”, And in response, “Grow up, you will understand!” - this is no good.

SciOne : Returning to research. What should first of all be directed to research in the field of education? Which of the open questions should we answer first?

S. Mitra : Evaluation, everything is obvious here - we need a new evaluation system. There are people who believe that it is necessary to remove the assessment in general as such. I disagree with that. Some form of assessment is needed, because if you graduate five thousand students and you only have a thousand jobs, which one will you take from them? To answer this, you need a rating. But this should not be in the form of exams. There is vivid evidence that the exam results are not related to real life. And if so, why are we doing this at all? I do not know what should be the new system. I hope that someday we will have an assessment method based on the understanding of human neurophysiology. Minimally invasive, as in medicine. At one time a doctor pounded his chest to understand ailment, today it is not necessary - a stethoscope, MRI, 3D imaging - methods of evaluation in medicine have changed a lot over the last century. Why hasn’t a similar change in education assessment occurred? All the same exam results. I think it is necessary to research the evaluation system as soon as possible, I want to take part myself, but it is too early to talk about specifics. But I am sure that it is necessary to involve all countries in this question: how to evaluate the child’s education?

SciOne : There are schools in which talented children, children with abilities are taught separately. Do you think that “gifted children” are different and need to be taught differently than usual?

S. Mitra : I will assume that, like everything else in nature, our brains and abilities are subject to what mathematicians call the Gauss distribution. Some - a small part of people - have gone far beyond the average, some are far behind, most of us are in the middle. The school is created for this middle. If you agree with this, the answer to your question is obvious: for these two tails, the formation should be different.

SciOne : Another important issue from the release partner is the Contribution to the Future Charitable Foundation.

If we give a child a computer, the Internet, a huge amount of information, and in no way control, then how will he learn to filter all this information? Can he independently develop critical thinking in such a situation?

S. Mitra: You know, I saw how, with a properly created environment, self-education helped children quickly and independently master skills. About two years ago I was in London, where we were discussing a complex issue of geology with nine-year-old children as part of the MTR. They had different difficulties, but in the end they gave brilliant answers. When I asked them what was difficult for them, they said that the difficulty was that the information was different on different sites. When asked how they solved this difficulty, they answered that they came up with a rule - if something is said on the site, they find another site, and if the information is different there, they find the third one in order to understand which of the two it matches. and just in case checked on the fourth. And then they all together discussed why this one, and not that one, because three say one and only one thing - the other.I then thought it was a wonderful answer. This is how dissertations are written. This builds a survey of opinions and questionnaires. They came to this in forty minutes.

SciOne : Impressive. Speaking of dissertations and this level of education. Today the school is very different from the university and we are talking about changes in the structure of schools, how they can be changed. Will there be any need for universities in the future or will they become part of this life-long school, so to speak?

S. Mitra: The modern education system and schools work from top to bottom: you listen to what you are told, the teacher teaches you, you memorize, then the exam. You go to the university and all the same - lectures, notes, passing the exam ... maybe with a few differences. Then there is a magistracy - about the same thing, only tasks like “write a couple of paragraphs about it, an essay on such a subject” appear. You say, you write, read. And here you are at the top of the system - graduate school. And what's there? - you are given a question to which no one has an answer. You have a leader who is usually absent, traveling or something ... You are alone, and only the sea of ​​information is around. Graduate school is the SSO, the peak of education is a pure environment of self-organization, everything below is the opposite. How so?I still remember graduate school when I first entered (by the way, I was a good student in this “listen-write-remember” system) and what should I do? - it was necessary to think. Graduate school is the most valuable level of education. A university is needed for research, not for a bachelor’s degree (I don’t see much sense in it). Universities should have borders (do not grow to the point of absurdity), should be sharpened for research in some specific areas (not all at once) and have departments and students involved only in these studies. I see this as a viable future, towards which all universities should move.

SciOne : A question from another subscriber of ours, a young father who is already thinking about how to properly train his child:

Your idea of ​​a self-organized environment, where children have the most freedom in learning, is liked by many progressive parents. But they worry, what will the child have after such a freedom in a classical university?

S. Mitra : I met my students who passed the MTR in England and India when they were already studying in a regular system. They were terribly disappointed. When I met students in England, they said: “You never warned about one thing - you didn’t say that we would no longer work at MTR ...”, I had to apologize and I asked how everything happens with them, they they said: “foolishly”, and someone replied: “Everything that we were taught at lectures at the university, you can google in five minutes.” They were very disappointed ...

In India, I met children who enrolled in graduate school (and who just gave me an idea that was previously voiced): “It was a real hell, all these five years of undergraduate and graduate studies ... and now I'm in heaven because I am writing my dissertation. This is where MTR is in graduate school! ” It was then that I thought that there is a self-education environment there.

SciOne : How do you see the society of the future? What, in your opinion as a specialist in the field of education, our society should become?

S. Mitra : Society needs to change, because we are essentially an industrial society, only without industry. Of course, we need to change. But how?I think we should develop creativity as the main activity. Sometimes people ask me: “All professions will disappear, what will people do?” - create ... It's funny, we, Homo sapiens are monkeys, who know wise men. But knowledge is outdated, it is no longer so important, we must become the monkeys that create - the creators. Someone calls it Homo Deus.

SciOne : May I ask you to say a few words to our subscribers? Basically, these are young people, future parents who want to study and teach their children ... Advise them how to learn today?

S. Mitra: Do not do boring things. Look at your day: think about what was boring for you and what was not. Take away all the boring things you can remove. Sometimes boring things have to do, but let someone else do them for you, do not do them yourself. Ask questions and learn new things. Learn new and use what you have learned to learn more. Be curious in everything. Who you are? Where are you?Why are you who you are? I think this is our essence, we are not machines. We invented them to do what they did, let them do their work. We will be people.

SciOne : Thank you very much!



Interview decryption: Anna Dudareva