Pride and Prejudice: Women in IT

We didn’t waste any time - on March 8, we discussed with four female programmers from DataArt the choice of profession and gender prejudices in it, the struggle for equal rights in IT and jokes of male colleagues.

When did you decide to become an engineer?

Ekaterina Shalapanova, Delivery Manager, Petersburg: ““ I was never going to be an engineer, I wanted to be a “programmer”. I wanted to become a programmer at the age of 10, when a computer class appeared in our school (UK-NC with a Bulgarian layout, who remembers). I was studying in the fourth grade at that time, and we were not allowed to go to the computers yet, but through the open door it was obvious how happy the high school students played in Tetris during breaks. I wanted to write programs for people to use in my work. I was always good with math, and I understood that I could. ”
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Sonya Filippova, Senior QA, Petersburg: “My parents are programmers, that is, the question“ who to be? ”Was not for me. The exact sciences were always easier for me, and the Russian language was pulled only to the tenth class - it was more difficult to decide on a specialty already inside the faculty. At the same time, my sister, on the contrary, is an art historian, and even the multiplication table caused her suffering. ”

Irina Chumakova, Senior Developer, Kiev: “I have all engineers in my family, my mother is also a programmer. Therefore, the question was: if not an engineer, then who to be? At the same time, my mother worked all her life at the factory, where management was still Soviet, completely sharing the principle of "chicken is not a bird, woman is not a man." T. h. With gender problems she, of course, faced. She had much fewer men at work, but they became bosses quickly, if they hadn’t retired before. But mom never dissuaded me, dad supported me, besides, I also have an older sister, who also became a programmer. ”

Alena Yakunina, Senior Developer, Kiev: “It happened by chance: there wasn’t in my family of engineers. When it was necessary to make a choice, we gathered in the family circle and actually went from the opposite. I will not say that the humanities were hard for me, but my soul was not in them, but everything was fine with mathematics. In addition, the last class I had with a bias in mathematics and computer science, although I can not say that I learned so much there. But my mother, apparently, foresaw a technological breakthrough and advised me to try myself in this direction. She also warned that men predominate in this profession, and I will have to prove my ability to do programming. But, honestly, I didn’t think much about it then. It seemed to me that in any case it would be necessary to prove that I was standing for something - it does not matter whether men or women, and in what area. ”

- How many girls studied with you at the institute? Have all your classmates become engineers?

E. Sh.: - In our group of 15 people there were three girls. There was more on the stream, yes - it seems, about 18 out of 45. From our group I went to work as a programmer, another girl became a “programmer” in a small enterprise and now works as a system administrator. The third unsuccessfully makes a scientific career in the field of applied mathematics. Everyone except work has families and children. If we talk about the whole stream, about half are engaged in engineering in one way or another, the rest have found themselves somewhere else.

S. F.: - There were quite a lot of girls in the Physics and Mathematics Class, but many were much more difficult. It was hard for anyone then - they became good architects, ichthyologists, economists, and, well, managers of everything, anything. It was easy for anyone — either they chose the exact sciences, or they were so good at all that they chose literary criticism from harm. There were many odnogruppnits, probably, even 50/50 with boys. Everyone got diplomas. Someone chose a humanitarian path (and builds up his eyelashes at his own pleasure), someone got a scientific degree, but most of it is somewhere in the middle between sitting at a research institute and testing software. I want to separately note that the guys are exactly the same.

I. Ch.: - We had a lot of girls. First, a third, after the third course and dropouts - already half. Then the groups joined, but still 40 percent were girls. Although many from the very beginning understood that programmers would not work. From our group in the IT went very few people, and went mostly reluctantly. Only those who liked to study and who began to work while still a student, continued to work in the specialty. In fairness, the guys had the same thing. Probably, in 2006, it seemed to them that our profession was not so promising.

A. Ja.: - Now, of course, there are much more girls entering engineering specialties - and this is good. During our studies, the percentage of women was hardly over twenty. But after its completion, almost everyone remained to work in IT, although, of course, not all became programmers. Someone went to testers, someone went to business intelligence, but I wasn't the only one who started out as a programmer.

- Have you encountered prejudices against female engineers during your studies?

E. Sh.: - Oh ... During my studies, no more than yes. There was one obvious case when a graduate student who was in charge of the practice doubted that I had done the task without help, but somehow I quickly reversed, realizing that I had blunted out stupidity. In LETI, we had many important subjects that were very well conducted by female teachers, and somehow there was no such question at all in the student community.

S. F.: - Some teachers treat the girls condescendingly, and the fellow students are more willing to help and are ready to do something for you, patiently explain several times, give to write off, decide on the exam. Women teachers sometimes look unfriendly, they say, give up that you torment everyone. But that's another story.

I. Ch.: - I did not encounter any prejudice at the university. True, it was much easier for me to study, because my older sister was an excellent pupil, and I myself was drawing. In addition, another girl studied with me in the group, whose older sister studied along with mine. And since my classmate studied much worse than her sister, I was perceived in a very positive way by contrast. But, honestly, it was easy for me to learn, I always understood everything and did it on time. True, I was considered a careerist - maybe the teachers made some dubious remarks on the topic of girls in IT, but not for me.

- Did you have to deal with prejudices and stereotypes?

E. Sh.: - When I graduated from the Institute in 2002, there was, of course, a lot of things. The industry was very young, there was a strong prejudice in society that girls, in principle, are not able to master a computer (it’s enough just to watch the advertisement of that time), you had to prove that you are “not a girl, but a programmer” ... I don’t know if there have been any qualitative changes in public consciousness, or I put myself that way, but after five years I stopped noticing the influence of all these stereotypes on myself.

S. F.: - I have no negative experience, but I know that often women engineers are treated as secretaries: who is a girl, he will write down a minute; or here the employer deliberately sends the girl on the most distant and inconvenient trip, because men refuse to go there; I sometimes hear from colleagues quotes about a blonde in a deployment-chat, etc. I can understand where my legs grow from, but it's still strange, just like it’s in principle to be a chauvinist in the 21st century, well, alo! Of course, it is easier to assume that stupidity depends on gender.

I. Ch.: - It was at the level of individuals, in no case at the level of corporate policy. But if suspicions crept in and I jokingly asked about someone: “Maybe he doesn’t like working with girls at all?” - sometimes it turned out that I’m not the first to come across a certain colleague’s hostility. I must say that such a situation arose even here in DataArt, and moreover during some difficult working moments. But I always try to be careful and not in a hurry to blame anyone for sexist prejudice.

In my previous work, I was the only female programmer for a very long time, although the girls came to the interviews. But I interviewed some of them myself, and I must say that they were objectively weaker. There, the guys could allow themselves to say: “Well, this is a girl!” And to my question about how to be with me, answer that I’m just an exception to the rules. I, frankly, jokes on this topic are unpleasant. Boys are at least wrong girls.

A. Y.: - I myself am trying to answer this question. I was recently invited to tell the girls, just starting their way to IT, about the start of a career, and this topic in the conversation, of course, sounded. And although I myself heard more than once that it is sometimes hard for some of the women to work, someone was even squeezed out of the projects, I didn’t have to deal with that. There were chuckles and hooks, but I never paid much attention to them. And not a single colleague has ever accused me of being more bangable than male programmers.

- Does the attitude to female engineers differ in different companies?

E. Sh.: - Yes. DataArt is different, rather, for the better. I have not come across any prejudices about my gender here. Well, I came here, of course, already with a certain experience and track record, and it was in 2007.

I. Ch.: - DataArt is different from other companies - there are much more female programmers here than in most other companies. But even now, the probability of two female programmers crossing on one project is very low. And I would like to have more of us. At the level where I am now, that is, at the level of engineer and manager of the first level, it seems to me that women and in other companies do not annoy anyone. Perhaps, with further advancement in some companies, you may encounter resistance. Especially where protections are developed, a specific man can be promoted faster. But in general, I think, we need to fight for our rights not within the framework of IT, but rather within our society. Just in IT it is much easier to do this.

A.Yu.: - Unfortunately, or fortunately, I did not work in such a large number of companies, and I can’t do a statistical sampling. But I can say that in the company where I worked before DataArt, in 90% of the possible cases, the techlid took the girls to work - there were even more female programmers than guys. Perhaps he believed that girls are more assiduous. But in general, I think you can feel quite comfortable in any progressive company.

- Now in DataArt production about 30% of girls. What needs to be done to have more women engineers?

E. Sh.: - Do you need to do something special? Probably just worth a closer look at our videos, which we publish on the domestic labor market. I remember somewhere about a year ago something that seemed to me blatantly sexist slipped, but now I don’t remember the details.

Again, both women and men are more suitable, and less suitable for a particular job. As a delivery manager, I would not introduce quotas for a certain gender, nationality, or sexual orientation, but would look first of all at what talents we want to attract to solve our business problems.

S. F.: - Why? If it is necessary to attract girls because it is more pleasant to get a salary in IT than a teacher's salary, let's, of course. If the question is only a percentage, then let the people do what they want.

I occasionally read articles and hear comments (mostly from Americans), that here, girls are literally taught at school that mathematics is not for them or that they do not know that there are technical specialties, or they don’t even dare to dream of them. Then yes, the more Girls Who Code will be, the more people will explain to girls that anyone can code, the more often Microsoft will do YouTube-courses for girls on a pink (I LOVE) background with the theme “Make your first mobile app for WinPhone”, all the better! For the last example, I still find it difficult to apply myself, because in Russian schools I did not pass the mathematics in the 9th grade - that's all for now!

I. Ch.: “I think it’s necessary to look at the production structure here. We have a lot of girls go to management and QA, but very few people go to software engineers. Perhaps this is due to the fact that testing and management can come later from other specialties. And linguistic skills there are often as important as technical skills. The second point is interest and desire. I became interested in programming in early adolescence - in our school, classes began at the age of ten. Perhaps, for many girls, say, at 16, this would not have seemed so interesting, even if they are well aware of mathematics. In addition, soft skills are very important in management, which in women are probably traditionally developed. However, maybe this is also a prejudice, only from the other side!

A.Yu .: - Trying to fictitiously increase the number of women in IT is pointless. You can monitor the situation and try to influence it only at your local level. It seems to me subjectively that the roots of the problem lie much deeper. And it will be very difficult to tell all parents to raise their daughters so that they are ready to succeed in any profession. In work, the percentage of adequate people is much more important than the percentage ratio of men and women.

- Do women in IT need to fight for their rights?

E. Sh.: - It seems to me that the problem is wider than IT. Separately in IT - no, not necessary, in society - yes, necessary. For example, I come across a situation where a girl, even without asking about her personal plans, is afraid to take a key position, because “she’s married recently, will suddenly go on maternity leave”. Or "she's a girl, let's send someone else to talk to that difficult client."

The correct answer in the first case: ask it directly already. A man is an adult and clearly understands what he wants. If the truth will pause on the decree, and she will warn you in advance, and we will do everything smoothly, so that the project will not suffer, but will only win. In the second case, one must still look not at the floor, but at its ability to conduct difficult negotiations and take a punch. Such things do not depend on the floor. And again, this is not so much about IT specifically as about our entire society, which has yet to evolve to the adoption of a new "intersexual" contract. Just 150 years work on this

Returning to IT, I, frankly, against communities like women in tech, because I don’t quite understand what message they want to convey to others. What women need some special treatment? No, professionals do not need special treatment. My vision of the ideal situation is absolutely no matter what the gender of the employee is when the managers assemble the project team. There are more important aspects, such as technical and soft skills.

S. F.: - Everyone must fight for their rights!

I. Ch.: - Our customers who share the values ​​of modern Western culture, no matter who commits the code or with whom they sign contracts. It is important for them that the work be done with quality and on time. Focusing on this, it is easier for women in our area to assert their rights. In the end, to be a sexist in IT, in my opinion, unfashionable. And if to call this unpleasant word to someone from our colleagues, he, I think, will be offended much more than a man working in another field.

A. Y.: - It seems to me that the struggle in itself does not lead to anything good. Therefore, I do not think that it is necessary to create any separate movement of women in IT - after all, it turns out they would have to fight with male colleagues. Another thing is that at the initial stage, some community of female programmers could help their inexperienced colleagues, who sometimes feel uncomfortable. Probably, it also happens that women tend to justify the specific failure of sexism colleagues. Although in fact, in the next project, everything may be fine - maybe people just did not get along. After all, no average people actually exist - each has its own characteristics. The main thing is that in the end everything rests on personal qualities, and not on gender differences.