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Podcast "Rules of the Game": accounting subtleties for technological (and other) business

Hi, Habr! Today I decided to share with you a transcript of the second part of the fifth issue of the “Rules of the Game” podcast, in which we communicate with lawyers and tax experts.


/ photo by Alan Cleaver CC

Here you will find a discussion of the situation around the practical use of cryptocurrency in business - questions and answers in simple words. The expert of the issue is Sergey Yashin , founder and head of the outsourcing provider of accounting services “ Yashin & Partners .”
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How to listen to the audio version of the podcast:





Alina: Let us turn to the main topic of today's podcast: technology and, first of all, everything related to Bitcoin. Everywhere they write that in Moscow the video cards have run out, all of the mines. I know that you had some ideas on working with Bitcoin, blockchain technologies. Tell me, please, how relevant is this topic for accounting? What is going on in this area?

Sergey: This is a very hot topic, this year especially. Since 2014, a lot of talk about it. If companies used to go IPO, now they collect ten times more, at least in dynamics, on ICO platforms that are related to cryptocurrencies.

The blockchain technology itself is very cool. It will allow to get rid of unnecessary bureaucratic "inserts", for example, notaries, incomprehensible ministries, which record the already obvious facts. As for the blockchain and bookkeeping, the topic is not very hot yet, because there are objectively few payers who want to pay a tax, earning income in bitcoins.

But at the same time, our government cannot react. It understands that if it does not enter this topic right now, it will just skip it. The government wants to legalize this business somehow, but for the time being it does not really understand how. There used to be a handful of IT people who said that miners were bitcoins. Now a thousand people are going to every tiny conference, everyone says that they are already doing something now, there are some services and deals.

The more popular this topic is, the more often bookkeeping will come across this technology. But so far there are no cryptocurrency accounting rules at all. There is such a wonderful young man Peter Belousov. He wrote a service for working with smart contracts - contracts "signed" in the system based on the blockchain, with the paycheck attached to them on the air.

The bottom line is that we can state the conditions in the contract, the amount is reserved on virtual accounts. At the moment when the conditions are fulfilled or not fulfilled, a write-off will occur. We tested it, but everything closes on a binding to a wallet with a cryptocurrency that exists or can be created.

We received payment in cryptocurrency, sent a request to the Ministry of Finance: “What should we do about it? We honestly want to count the revenue. ” No answer so far. I think it will not be, because when we, for example, buy a cryptocurrency from a legal entity, these are ordinary financial investments.

Alina: You can invest in gold or look in the direction of cryptocurrency.

Sergey: Yes. This is just a stock exchange. Conventionally, an exchange is a legal entity or a chain of legal entities. We just sent money somewhere, received some documents in reply. Accordingly, on the contrary, at the time of the sale of bitcoins, we get either a profit or a loss, and somehow fix it in accounting.

Previously, it was dumb, because the cryptocurrency was illegal, for the presence of bitcoins frightened prison. Now these conversations have subsided, the fact of investing money in a cryptocurrency is not criminal. But, as the tax inspectorate explained in October, any operations that will be associated with cryptocurrencies pass on 115- "On counteracting legalization (laundering) of proceeds from crime and financing of terrorism", because now the lion's share of transactions goes through Bitcoins buying weapons, financing prohibited organizations because of anonymity.

The tax inspectorate gave a slight explanation that we should consider cryptocurrency as a regular currency, while there is no currency control at the bank, of course, because cryptocurrency is not a means of payment. But this will take place on 115-FZ, which means that banks will request a huge amount of documents, they can block the account with all the ensuing consequences.

Why? Because any controlling authority will immediately have a question: “Why is the calculation not in rubles?”. So anonymity is needed. If anonymity is needed, then something is being done wrong. And here the story will evolve. This is in terms of simply buying Bitcoins on the exchange and selling them back. Much more interesting is happening with the extraction of these bitcoins.


/ photo Mirko Tobias Schäfer CC

Alina: With mining.

Sergey: Yes, when we have some computing power and a lot of cheap electricity. Here in accounting there is a certain collapse, because, in general, this is a story out of thin air, and so far there is no explanation of the accounting technology. But, based on some general indicators, Bitcoin itself, as a result of mining, for accounting and tax accounting is also not profit, because it is not a means of payment. And at the moment when we sold it and got the money, we have to fix and pay the income tax.

Alina: Until there was a bitcoin exchange for a currency that was more tangible for our legislation, adopted and legitimate, is it not fixed anywhere in the assets at all?

Sergey: Yes.

Alina: As soon as we exchange it, does it appear in the account?

Sergey: Yes. Therefore, it would be nice to get some clarification from the same Ministry of Finance. It is clear that there is some kind of electricity consumption, which must be written off. Electricity consumption in the process of mining bitcoins is not fixed in any way, it is possible to “light up” the lights by at least a million and reflect in accordance with the general rules - it’s not a fact that this electricity allowed us to get bitcoin.

Currently there are no accounts that are responsible for cryptocurrency and fix it. I think so far there are no enthusiasts who want to pay a tax on arriving from naming bitcoins, at least from a legal entity.

Alina: How do you feel about Bitcoin being equal to a product and paying taxes already with VAT on its implementation?

Sergey: I read an article that the Central Bank decided to recognize Bitcoins as a digital product. But we understand that this is not a product. This is an analogue of payment, analogue of currency, of a payment instrument. For simplicity, they think that now it will be possible to exchange them for something or sell them as ordinary goods. But the very production of these bitcoins is questionable.

I think the idea will not take root, it does not reflect the real state of things. We can consider bitcoins services. But this is not the other. Here another interesting situation arises: if I get paid in Bitcoins for some product, then Bitcoin itself is considered to be nonsense as a product.

Alina: The natural exchange turns out.

Sergey: Yes. This does not reflect the real situation. For example, I sold you a sand barge for bitcoins. VAT is not charged at the time of payment Bitcoin.

Alina: Because there is no bitcoin.

Sergey: Because it is not money. But VAT will be charged when I issue an invoice. You will accept this invoice, I will pay VAT, you will pay a deduction. And as if there is no payment, and this receivables will hang. Payment will be closed when I exchange the received bitcoins for rubles. While there is no payment, I have an account with which I must do something after 3 years, if I don’t change Bitcoins. And I can not change them, and spend on something else.

The bottom line is that for some reason I may not want to change these bitcoins. After 3 years of VAT, I'm not going anywhere, but I can “unscrew” the income tax back. On the other hand, the counterparty who did not pay in rubles should also calculate the income and pay the tax. He will not be very comfortable.

What will happen in 3 years? I'm cool, I removed the income tax, and what will happen to that counterparty is not clear. If a company disappears in 3 years, it no longer has any complaints, and I reduce the income tax, we are faced with the same system of technical companies that we have now.

This is a kind of cashing only using bitcoins. There is a little more difficult evidence. For example, I did not want to tell that I received payment in Bitcoins. How to catch? We do not have a crypto wallet tied to a legal entity. Any wallet is tied to mail, to an individual, as long as there is no legitimate way to bind a wallet with Bitcoins to a legal entity.

Therefore, I am sure that now Bitcoin is a means of expanding the number of schemes with which you can optimize taxation. Since the taxation is mirror - somewhere something has departed, it means that somewhere something has arrived, it cannot be that no one has paid. Therefore, everything will rest against some kind of "bad" counterparty. But other counterparties will have a certain tax benefit.


/ photo by Marco Verch CC

Alina: It is clear that there is a huge amount of nuances, how to take into account Bitcoins, and how legislation should perceive them.

Sergey: While it is difficult to understand, is it a conspiracy or not, paid or not. This we have not touched on litigation. By the way, about the litigation.

Lyudmila Kharitonov from Zartsin, Yankovsky and Partners is working on Internet law. We, together with her, she to a greater degree, we, as experts, want to try to create judicial precedents related to the introduction of cryptocurrency in the authorized capital. It is being started to see what the court will say. There is such a good idea.

Alina: To create, in fact, the basis for arbitration practice on the topic of Bitcoin.

Sergey: Yes. It will be negative until it is decided at the top what to do about it. For example, we exchanged goods with bitcoin payments. Formally, it is possible to collect an evidence base to understand whether we have paid or not. I think now all the courts will adhere to Russian law, according to which we must exchange in national currency. If there was no exchange in rubles, then there is no question.

You bought something for bitcoins, do you have closing documents, have you issued acts? Not set. No deals, it came up. I think it will be like this for now. There is simply no regulatory framework that regulates this.

Alina: This is logical, because on the territory of the Russian Federation we carry out an exchange in rubles. Naturally, the legislator will say that it is necessary to continue to implement it in rubles. Why try to exchange in some other "currency".

Sergey: Yes. It looks as if you and I have come up with some third currency that does not exist. We figured out that I have 10 things, and you have 10 things. We rendered some services and exchanged these tricks.

I come to court and say that we invented this currency, and now I should have 20 things, and Alina 0. The court will say that we are sick. But when such a whole crowd comes and says that in fact all this is there, people will think and start somehow working with it.

Alina: Now the topic with ICO is gaining popularity, when, on the territory of, say, the European Union, a Russian citizen can start issuing his own cryptocurrency. What are your thoughts on how a citizen of Russia should act in this case in order to remain in the legal field in Russia? Should he pay taxes for this currency? Does he need to declare that he now has a certain currency?

Sergey: First of all, it is necessary to take into account the tax system of a particular country in which a person produces emissions. If he performs some kind of activity there, perhaps at the moment when he sold the cryptocurrency and received the money, he should fix the income. At least from the point of view of Russian law.

Perhaps, in a European country, the very fact of the extraction of cryptocurrencies, emissions, should be recorded, but each country decides for itself. I think that countries like Singapore should be slightly ahead and pick up some kind of regulatory framework.

And in Russia there is a law on controlled foreign companies (the law on the CEC). If a person is a resident of the Russian Federation, has a legal entity in Europe, according to the CFC rule, he must declare the presence of this foreign organization, declare its profit and submit reports.

Alina: But he will have a profit when he exchanges this cryptocurrency for any other real one.

Sergey: I think so. If local law provides for something else, and he has reflected in the local accounts some profit in his koinah, you can say so. There is an amendment to local law, I think. But again, there is no practice. Imagine how many different situations there will be when a person did something wrong, changed his mind, wanted to unscrew it back. This is a big field, it will probably form the right policy.

Alina: Not to mention the fact that in each country there can be specific features related to accounting for cryptocurrency, with the issue of cryptocurrency, how to perceive it from the point of view of taxation, legislation. And Russia will need to select compromise options for interaction with these different conditions.

Sergey: Of course! And not only the tax authorities, who record the result, but also the banks. It seems to me that banks are the first interested parties, because while everything passes by them, they can neither fix nor remove the commission. Although banks have large computing power, human resources.

It seems to me that banks are the first to want to bypass everything. And Gref says what they want, and Alfa-Bank is trying to make some projects on the blockchain system.

I hope the idea of ​​a crypto currency - the Russian cryptocurrency - will not be the same as with the MIR card. Either it will not, or it will be a little more fun. Everything is done with a little soviet tone. And this is far from the technological breakthrough in developed countries, when they take and replace the entire notary system with blockchains.

Alina: How promising is the blockchain technology apart from cryptocurrency to optimize the bureaucratic processes that exist in business?


/ photo by Marco Verch CC

Sergey: Now attention is attracted to Bitcoin, because it is easily changed for money. In fact, the technology of the registry of the book of records, the blockchain, is in itself very cool, because it does not allow replacing something with back numbers if we are talking about the correct protocols that cannot be cracked. Technology will change the world a lot. We are waiting for this.

Now there is a tendency to replace human labor with machine, automated. For example, accounting. The product is bought, sold, something happens to it. Each action is accompanied by a huge number of documents. Similarly with the sale of real estate and transport. Any piece of paper somewhere is certified, has a story.

If we are talking about the introduction of blockchain technology in different areas, then each of these actions with the goods is fixed. There is just a so-called book of records, which is quite easy to work with. In the field of accounting and taxation, it is quite simple to write software that will process an existing book of records and take taxes into account. This is a large field that will allow to bring transparency to another level. It seems to me that the first thing that will be really correct is the abolition of all bureaucratic delays with notaries and ministries.

Alina: In the end, there are banking services, where documents for legal entities are signed and sent to the bank by entering a code from a mobile phone. Now no one is not a big surprise.

Sergey: We had clients who carried wallets to the bank and said that everything that was in the computer and on the Internet was unsafe. And so everything that now seems wild, strange and incomprehensible, in 5 years will be unrecognizable, including the banking system, the system of keeping registers. Therefore, the blockchain technology is really cool.

Alina: I hope that the human resource for shifting, rewriting, creating pieces of paper will still be more expensive than using the blockchain, and the transition to a new technology would be carried out where it would be appropriate to do so.

Sergey: We in our company at the beginning of the year wanted to launch a project to automate work blocks in the accounting department. The idea is still evolving. We wanted to abandon manual labor in some areas and replace it with algorithms with Machine Learning elements.

In the end, to say that for us it is cheaper, it is impossible. It is not even more expensive, it is several times more expensive. This is an idea for the sake of an idea. Therefore, we are waiting for some technological breakthroughs that will be able to reduce the cost of this process. While it is more profitable to take an employee who will correctly perform these blocks of work.

Alina: You already have a groundwork for this technology and opportunities, therefore, as soon as the process becomes cheaper, you will immediately find yourself on a horse, ahead.

Source: https://habr.com/ru/post/350902/


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