The time of cargo cults in the marketing of games has passed. Interview with Max Donskikh, Game Insight President
As part of the Mobio Talks program, the founder of the Mobio agency, Alexey Pisarevsky, interviewed Game Donnest President Max Don.
We discussed the development and promotion of games in Russia and abroad, indie developers and their chances of success in modern realities, how the marketing of games has changed over the past 4 years and much more.
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In the gaming industry, Max since 2001. In 2008, he joined the IT Territory company, with a team that he transferred to Astrum Online Entertainment holding, and later - to Mail.Ru Games, where he headed the social games development department. In 2010, Maxim founded the Road 404 studio, which became part of Game Insight. In December 2014, he headed the company's marketing division, and at the end of 2015, he became President.
Game Insight needs no introduction, tell us a little about yourself: how did you get into the company, and how was your way to the president.
I got into game development a long time ago. He started in the company IT-territory, which was engaged in the development of browser games and succeeded in this more than others. You can compare, perhaps, with the "Fight Club". Then on its base was formed holding Astrum Online Entertainment. There I was engaged in the casual direction, and we were among the first to launch games for social networks in Russia. With many like-minded colleagues, we later ended up at Game Insight.
And then what happened?
Game Insight was formed as a result of combining several studios, one of which I directed. It was called Road 404 and made, for example, City Airport - one of the biggest hits of Game Insight.
We set up work so that everyone can do many different things for the benefit of other studios and Game Insight as a whole. I, for example, besides directing the studio, was engaged in publishing, then - in marketing. Well, eventually became the president.
Ilya Eremeev (creative producer Game Insight) and Max Donskikh
How easy were these movements for you? Surely what you are doing today as a president is very different from what you did as a marketing director.
Now it seems that everything was logical and easy, although each time it was a leap into the unknown. In fact, there was one job in all positions - to make the games go out and be successful. I solved this problem from the point of view of both development and marketing. Only the scale and degree of influence on the tasks changed.
You have a lot of experience in game development. Name the gold standard of the development studio: what it should consist of, which departments, which mandatory competencies should be in the team, without which it is impossible to do.
The gold standard of development has not changed in recent decades. To make a game, we need programmers, game designers and artists. Well, if there is still a carrier of the idea of ​​the game, who would push it. It is very good if he is the owner of the studio or at least is motivated to death for financial success. Then more likely that the game will turn out.
But if we are talking about Free-to-play games that Game Insight deals with, then just make the game a little. The most important thing begins after the release - at the stage of operating, when the audience came. This audience should be entertained with constant updates, new content, features, events. All this should come out with a certain frequency so that players do not run away, come back.
To build such an architecture, we need people with special knowledge. Already at the development stage, it is important to work out how the game will develop in the future - from the point of view of technology, and from the point of view of game design.
In addition, the operation is associated with a huge number of numbers, which almost never happened before in the games industry. This is a permanent removal of metrics from the audience: what the user does, how to play. Accordingly, we need those who collect and process these numbers. It could be game designers, producers, analysts - it does not matter. It is important that they should be in the team.
And, of course, nowhere without marketing. Here is the modern gold standard, the team is a decent size.
You said you need programmers, game designers and artists. Let's say these guys gathered in this indie team, as they are called. Do they have a chance of success in modern realities?
Of course, they have a chance. Exactly the same as everyone else - not very big.
We must immediately decide that indie games, because they are made by small teams, most often live on a different business model. Small teams can not provide a long and systematic development of the Free-to-play product, so they go the other way: do Paid-games or free, monetized on advertising. This is a slightly different niche, but yes, there are some chances.
Speaking of indie, I would divide the teams into two categories. There are developers who are burning with the idea, they have thrown everything for her, invest their money in its realization and self-realization. This causes respect regardless of the commercial result.
Another category of indie is small teams that for some reason have gotten together, but try to make a business out of it: they think which game will be better for the market, where is the niche, where to climb. This is not much different from the usual commercial development, but the scale is smaller.
Of course, there are examples of success, because often indie try new genres, ideas. This is very positive for the market.
That is, there are positive examples from the series “a new genre was invented and went wrong”?
There are, but it is rarely possible to put on stream. Well, if you managed to make a hit, and then you have to go to the casino - you took the money home. It is rarely possible to reproduce your success, because every time this is a new experiment, and so that each experiment succeeds, it does not happen that way. Small teams can often only survive one setback. Big companies are much simpler in this regard: there is a financial cushion and the opportunity, even after unsuccessful releases, to continue working, releasing new games and grope for new success.
And in that case, what should the indie team do, if they did and did it, earned money? As I understand it, there are two ways: you can wait for the conditional Game Insight to buy you, or you can try to grow a team, develop.
Almost everyone chooses the way to develop, but here it is important to be aware: this is already a commercial enterprise, and it operates according to other laws. As a result, repeat success is obtained in units.
White Nights Conference 2015
With indie everything is clear. Tell me a little about marketing, you did a lot of it. Obviously, today and three years ago - these are completely different things. What has changed in the market?
Three or four years ago, they were engaged in marketing by eye, very roughly assessing the correlation of the efforts made and the result obtained in terms of attitudes and, ultimately, money. There was little transparency, tools, analytics. As a result, some kind of cargo-cults were formed, how to start or promote games: put them on the top at the start, buy some articles, branding on portals. Once it gave the result, once it did not. Why? It was not easy to figure out. In this case, in our case, traffic is the blood of business, new users are constantly needed. So the farther, the more difficult the tools become to attract them. It was necessary to understand what was happening, where the user came from, what he was doing inside the game. The analytics were getting farther and farther away, and the purchases were already optimized for some specific goals, and not just “let's chase the game to the top, we will have a lot of organic matter, and that's it, we're in chocolate” This is from a general change.
Obviously, everything has become more expensive. The competition is growing, and everyone understands that without a constant influx of new players, the business does not work. Budgets are increasing cumulatively in the entire industry, so an individual user becomes more expensive. This leads to the fact that no one is interested in buying just users. Because for this money, no longer small compared to how it was 3-4 years ago, everyone wants to get some specific user, with a specific profile, and preferably, that’s just very desirable, paying.
Looking at the conditional Machine Zone, it seems that everything is fine with them. They still buy everything. Do they measure everything so well, or is everything so automated with them, or is this LTV so high that they can afford it? Or just do not count the money?
And yes, and yes, and yes. And everything is cool, and LTV is high, and money does not count. It’s difficult for our companies to compare themselves with Machine Zone or Supercell, they are playing a completely different game. First, in investment, respectively, in the constant increase of turnover. In the end, the bet in their game is a kind of dominance in the market and in the genre. If you have achieved this, then no matter how much it cost, you already get the benefits from first place. Many try to live in such a model, but only one succeeds.
Doesn't everyone have enough money?
The stakes are really big and, since so many companies are competing, it’s not enough just a big LTV, money or a good marketing team. There must be one, and the second, and the third, and another 10 points above.
3 main people in Game Insight from left to right: Anatoly Ropotov (CEO), Max Donskikh (President of the company) and Igor Matsanyuk (Chairman of the Board of Directors)
What should be done today by the grid or the agency, conditional traffic provider, let's call it so as to work with gaming companies? It is no secret that they are the most advanced in the market of mobile application developers. Everyone knows how to do, they love to do themselves, they think well. What do these guys do?
Good question, I was asked many times. I myself asked it to the agencies many times: “Why do you need us?”, And no one could answer me. It is no secret that gaming companies are doing their own purchases well, this is primarily due to the fact that User Acquisition must be very tightly integrated into the operation. It is necessary to react very quickly to all changes within the game: actions, changes in user behavior, and so on. It’s difficult for an outside agency to get involved. In addition, gaming companies are very sensitive about their data and do not like to share them. And without them, the traffic providers cannot be optimized for specific KPIs and goals that buyers face.
If you still answer the question “How can agencies be useful?”, Then these are most likely some very narrow segments of services that are difficult or costly to master by developers and publishers themselves. One example is traffic in Asia, with which it is very difficult to work from Europe, and to work with which you need either a presence in the Asian region or local partners.
Tell us more about Asia. China, Korea, Japan - these countries are very interesting for any game developer. What is going on there, how is it going?
With Asia, the situation is this. If you look at the gaming market as a pie, then the share of Asia in it is constantly increasing. Japan and Korea are the most profitable regions in mobile games. China is also growing strongly, although it was recently believed that no one was paying there. At the same time, it is not easy to work with them, because the audience is very specific both from the point of view of its closeness, as a market, and from the point of view of players' preferences.
For 2016, mobile games earned $ 40.6 billion. More than half of this amount was earned by Asia - $ 24.9 billion, the SuperData report “Market Brief - Year in Review 2016”
Developers from Europe and the United States, like Game Insight, still dominate the US and European markets. Only a few manage to break through to Asia so that it is a significant part of the income. Everyone wants to go there, but there are a lot of obstacles. In the meantime, it is much more noticeable that Asians are entering the European and American markets.
But they are also hard.
If we are talking, for example, about Chinese games, then they can afford to have a thousand people in development and do everything that is possible within this game according to the features and amount of content. This leads their local players to expect the same from all games. The same applies to other Asian markets. If we are talking about Japan and Korea, then there events in games should be included several times a day. In Europe or the States a much more measured rhythm. Therefore, when a European or American game comes out to an Asian audience, some Japanese or Korean is 10 times faster than the developers expected, passes it and swallows all the content, and then sits down and waits. He will not wait long, and then will go back to his some kind of Puzzle & Dragons.
What about other markets? As far as I know, you recently had experience in Turkey, you actively promoted games. Why Turkey?
We chose Turkey for our Softlonch shooter Guns of Boom for several reasons. First, they play shooters there, secondly, the game was launched on Android, and there is a large proportion of Android. Third, it is quite inexpensive to attract an audience.
Guns of Boom - a new shooter from Game Insight, nearly 2 million downloads on Google Play
Still softlone. Especially you did not plan to earn there?
We plan to earn and earn money there, but, roughly speaking, after the world release, in any case, the situation will change, and America and Europe will still be the main markets.
Is everything really bad with Russia? No chance to earn here? Does it make sense only for Russia to release the game?
I do not see the point. Game Insight doesn’t do that for a long time. This can only be justified by some unknown reasons, for example, if you are making a pore farm “Prostokvashino”. But, other things being equal, why limit your audience to Russia? Yes, it is easier to work with it and in general you can start with it, but to count and build a business on the Russian audience for a gaming company - why? Compared to the previous game era, mobile stores have opened up a global market for developers. That is, you made a game, loaded it into a story, put ticks where you want to open it, and here all your players - America, Europe, Asia, whatever, and Russia as well. And this is a global change in the games market, because before you developed any game for money 1C, and then you had to launch it in each region separately, it was very expensive and difficult. So, then, yes, it made sense to run only on Russia.
What do you think about prospects on some separate platforms? iOS and Android is understandable. On the desktop, you tried to do more social, Steam any more growing?
Everywhere is good. We tried a lot of things for ourselves, now the focus is Game Insight - games for mobile platforms. Before that, we were very tightly focused on games for social networks. Choosing a platform, it is necessary, first, to assess whether it is suitable for your game. It is foolish to ignore new platforms, if they are suitable for technology and the audience that can be found there. Therefore, if it turns out, you have to try everything, there are prospects everywhere.
Max Don and Anatoly Ropotov (CEO Game Insight)
What is missing from the game development market? What are you waiting for in a few years? What will appear?
I am waiting for new ways to distribute games, new channels. Because all the platforms and channels go through, albeit at different times, about the same way. There is a new platform or channel, and the first who gets there, break the bank. Then there is growth, with the growth of the market increases competition, and over time it becomes increasingly difficult to find your user. Game Insight has twice been able to be on this wave. At first they were social networks, a completely new field. Then we were one of the first to switch to mobile platforms. And I would say that I am waiting for such a new jump, where we will again be able to reorganize and bring new games to new users. Maybe it will be VR, maybe games for instant messengers - we'll see. In any case, it will be interesting.
Fine. Then on this good note and finish. Thank you so much for coming.
It was the transfer of Mobio Talks, subscribe to our youtube channel , so as not to miss the new releases. If you have your own questions for Max - ask in the comments.
We discussed the development and promotion of games in Russia and abroad, indie developers and their chances of success in modern realities, how the marketing of games has changed over the past 4 years and much more.
')
In the gaming industry, Max since 2001. In 2008, he joined the IT Territory company, with a team that he transferred to Astrum Online Entertainment holding, and later - to Mail.Ru Games, where he headed the social games development department. In 2010, Maxim founded the Road 404 studio, which became part of Game Insight. In December 2014, he headed the company's marketing division, and at the end of 2015, he became President.
Game Insight needs no introduction, tell us a little about yourself: how did you get into the company, and how was your way to the president.
I got into game development a long time ago. He started in the company IT-territory, which was engaged in the development of browser games and succeeded in this more than others. You can compare, perhaps, with the "Fight Club". Then on its base was formed holding Astrum Online Entertainment. There I was engaged in the casual direction, and we were among the first to launch games for social networks in Russia. With many like-minded colleagues, we later ended up at Game Insight.
And then what happened?
Game Insight was formed as a result of combining several studios, one of which I directed. It was called Road 404 and made, for example, City Airport - one of the biggest hits of Game Insight.
We set up work so that everyone can do many different things for the benefit of other studios and Game Insight as a whole. I, for example, besides directing the studio, was engaged in publishing, then - in marketing. Well, eventually became the president.
Ilya Eremeev (creative producer Game Insight) and Max Donskikh
How easy were these movements for you? Surely what you are doing today as a president is very different from what you did as a marketing director.
Now it seems that everything was logical and easy, although each time it was a leap into the unknown. In fact, there was one job in all positions - to make the games go out and be successful. I solved this problem from the point of view of both development and marketing. Only the scale and degree of influence on the tasks changed.
You have a lot of experience in game development. Name the gold standard of the development studio: what it should consist of, which departments, which mandatory competencies should be in the team, without which it is impossible to do.
The gold standard of development has not changed in recent decades. To make a game, we need programmers, game designers and artists. Well, if there is still a carrier of the idea of ​​the game, who would push it. It is very good if he is the owner of the studio or at least is motivated to death for financial success. Then more likely that the game will turn out.
But if we are talking about Free-to-play games that Game Insight deals with, then just make the game a little. The most important thing begins after the release - at the stage of operating, when the audience came. This audience should be entertained with constant updates, new content, features, events. All this should come out with a certain frequency so that players do not run away, come back.
To build such an architecture, we need people with special knowledge. Already at the development stage, it is important to work out how the game will develop in the future - from the point of view of technology, and from the point of view of game design.
In addition, the operation is associated with a huge number of numbers, which almost never happened before in the games industry. This is a permanent removal of metrics from the audience: what the user does, how to play. Accordingly, we need those who collect and process these numbers. It could be game designers, producers, analysts - it does not matter. It is important that they should be in the team.
And, of course, nowhere without marketing. Here is the modern gold standard, the team is a decent size.
You said you need programmers, game designers and artists. Let's say these guys gathered in this indie team, as they are called. Do they have a chance of success in modern realities?
Of course, they have a chance. Exactly the same as everyone else - not very big.
We must immediately decide that indie games, because they are made by small teams, most often live on a different business model. Small teams can not provide a long and systematic development of the Free-to-play product, so they go the other way: do Paid-games or free, monetized on advertising. This is a slightly different niche, but yes, there are some chances.
Speaking of indie, I would divide the teams into two categories. There are developers who are burning with the idea, they have thrown everything for her, invest their money in its realization and self-realization. This causes respect regardless of the commercial result.
Another category of indie is small teams that for some reason have gotten together, but try to make a business out of it: they think which game will be better for the market, where is the niche, where to climb. This is not much different from the usual commercial development, but the scale is smaller.
Of course, there are examples of success, because often indie try new genres, ideas. This is very positive for the market.
That is, there are positive examples from the series “a new genre was invented and went wrong”?
There are, but it is rarely possible to put on stream. Well, if you managed to make a hit, and then you have to go to the casino - you took the money home. It is rarely possible to reproduce your success, because every time this is a new experiment, and so that each experiment succeeds, it does not happen that way. Small teams can often only survive one setback. Big companies are much simpler in this regard: there is a financial cushion and the opportunity, even after unsuccessful releases, to continue working, releasing new games and grope for new success.
And in that case, what should the indie team do, if they did and did it, earned money? As I understand it, there are two ways: you can wait for the conditional Game Insight to buy you, or you can try to grow a team, develop.
Almost everyone chooses the way to develop, but here it is important to be aware: this is already a commercial enterprise, and it operates according to other laws. As a result, repeat success is obtained in units.
White Nights Conference 2015
With indie everything is clear. Tell me a little about marketing, you did a lot of it. Obviously, today and three years ago - these are completely different things. What has changed in the market?
Three or four years ago, they were engaged in marketing by eye, very roughly assessing the correlation of the efforts made and the result obtained in terms of attitudes and, ultimately, money. There was little transparency, tools, analytics. As a result, some kind of cargo-cults were formed, how to start or promote games: put them on the top at the start, buy some articles, branding on portals. Once it gave the result, once it did not. Why? It was not easy to figure out. In this case, in our case, traffic is the blood of business, new users are constantly needed. So the farther, the more difficult the tools become to attract them. It was necessary to understand what was happening, where the user came from, what he was doing inside the game. The analytics were getting farther and farther away, and the purchases were already optimized for some specific goals, and not just “let's chase the game to the top, we will have a lot of organic matter, and that's it, we're in chocolate” This is from a general change.
Obviously, everything has become more expensive. The competition is growing, and everyone understands that without a constant influx of new players, the business does not work. Budgets are increasing cumulatively in the entire industry, so an individual user becomes more expensive. This leads to the fact that no one is interested in buying just users. Because for this money, no longer small compared to how it was 3-4 years ago, everyone wants to get some specific user, with a specific profile, and preferably, that’s just very desirable, paying.
Looking at the conditional Machine Zone, it seems that everything is fine with them. They still buy everything. Do they measure everything so well, or is everything so automated with them, or is this LTV so high that they can afford it? Or just do not count the money?
And yes, and yes, and yes. And everything is cool, and LTV is high, and money does not count. It’s difficult for our companies to compare themselves with Machine Zone or Supercell, they are playing a completely different game. First, in investment, respectively, in the constant increase of turnover. In the end, the bet in their game is a kind of dominance in the market and in the genre. If you have achieved this, then no matter how much it cost, you already get the benefits from first place. Many try to live in such a model, but only one succeeds.
Doesn't everyone have enough money?
The stakes are really big and, since so many companies are competing, it’s not enough just a big LTV, money or a good marketing team. There must be one, and the second, and the third, and another 10 points above.
3 main people in Game Insight from left to right: Anatoly Ropotov (CEO), Max Donskikh (President of the company) and Igor Matsanyuk (Chairman of the Board of Directors)
What should be done today by the grid or the agency, conditional traffic provider, let's call it so as to work with gaming companies? It is no secret that they are the most advanced in the market of mobile application developers. Everyone knows how to do, they love to do themselves, they think well. What do these guys do?
Good question, I was asked many times. I myself asked it to the agencies many times: “Why do you need us?”, And no one could answer me. It is no secret that gaming companies are doing their own purchases well, this is primarily due to the fact that User Acquisition must be very tightly integrated into the operation. It is necessary to react very quickly to all changes within the game: actions, changes in user behavior, and so on. It’s difficult for an outside agency to get involved. In addition, gaming companies are very sensitive about their data and do not like to share them. And without them, the traffic providers cannot be optimized for specific KPIs and goals that buyers face.
If you still answer the question “How can agencies be useful?”, Then these are most likely some very narrow segments of services that are difficult or costly to master by developers and publishers themselves. One example is traffic in Asia, with which it is very difficult to work from Europe, and to work with which you need either a presence in the Asian region or local partners.
Tell us more about Asia. China, Korea, Japan - these countries are very interesting for any game developer. What is going on there, how is it going?
With Asia, the situation is this. If you look at the gaming market as a pie, then the share of Asia in it is constantly increasing. Japan and Korea are the most profitable regions in mobile games. China is also growing strongly, although it was recently believed that no one was paying there. At the same time, it is not easy to work with them, because the audience is very specific both from the point of view of its closeness, as a market, and from the point of view of players' preferences.
For 2016, mobile games earned $ 40.6 billion. More than half of this amount was earned by Asia - $ 24.9 billion, the SuperData report “Market Brief - Year in Review 2016”Developers from Europe and the United States, like Game Insight, still dominate the US and European markets. Only a few manage to break through to Asia so that it is a significant part of the income. Everyone wants to go there, but there are a lot of obstacles. In the meantime, it is much more noticeable that Asians are entering the European and American markets.
But they are also hard.
If we are talking, for example, about Chinese games, then they can afford to have a thousand people in development and do everything that is possible within this game according to the features and amount of content. This leads their local players to expect the same from all games. The same applies to other Asian markets. If we are talking about Japan and Korea, then there events in games should be included several times a day. In Europe or the States a much more measured rhythm. Therefore, when a European or American game comes out to an Asian audience, some Japanese or Korean is 10 times faster than the developers expected, passes it and swallows all the content, and then sits down and waits. He will not wait long, and then will go back to his some kind of Puzzle & Dragons.
What about other markets? As far as I know, you recently had experience in Turkey, you actively promoted games. Why Turkey?
We chose Turkey for our Softlonch shooter Guns of Boom for several reasons. First, they play shooters there, secondly, the game was launched on Android, and there is a large proportion of Android. Third, it is quite inexpensive to attract an audience.
Guns of Boom - a new shooter from Game Insight, nearly 2 million downloads on Google Play
Still softlone. Especially you did not plan to earn there?
We plan to earn and earn money there, but, roughly speaking, after the world release, in any case, the situation will change, and America and Europe will still be the main markets.
Is everything really bad with Russia? No chance to earn here? Does it make sense only for Russia to release the game?
I do not see the point. Game Insight doesn’t do that for a long time. This can only be justified by some unknown reasons, for example, if you are making a pore farm “Prostokvashino”. But, other things being equal, why limit your audience to Russia? Yes, it is easier to work with it and in general you can start with it, but to count and build a business on the Russian audience for a gaming company - why? Compared to the previous game era, mobile stores have opened up a global market for developers. That is, you made a game, loaded it into a story, put ticks where you want to open it, and here all your players - America, Europe, Asia, whatever, and Russia as well. And this is a global change in the games market, because before you developed any game for money 1C, and then you had to launch it in each region separately, it was very expensive and difficult. So, then, yes, it made sense to run only on Russia.
What do you think about prospects on some separate platforms? iOS and Android is understandable. On the desktop, you tried to do more social, Steam any more growing?
Everywhere is good. We tried a lot of things for ourselves, now the focus is Game Insight - games for mobile platforms. Before that, we were very tightly focused on games for social networks. Choosing a platform, it is necessary, first, to assess whether it is suitable for your game. It is foolish to ignore new platforms, if they are suitable for technology and the audience that can be found there. Therefore, if it turns out, you have to try everything, there are prospects everywhere.
Max Don and Anatoly Ropotov (CEO Game Insight)
What is missing from the game development market? What are you waiting for in a few years? What will appear?
I am waiting for new ways to distribute games, new channels. Because all the platforms and channels go through, albeit at different times, about the same way. There is a new platform or channel, and the first who gets there, break the bank. Then there is growth, with the growth of the market increases competition, and over time it becomes increasingly difficult to find your user. Game Insight has twice been able to be on this wave. At first they were social networks, a completely new field. Then we were one of the first to switch to mobile platforms. And I would say that I am waiting for such a new jump, where we will again be able to reorganize and bring new games to new users. Maybe it will be VR, maybe games for instant messengers - we'll see. In any case, it will be interesting.
Fine. Then on this good note and finish. Thank you so much for coming.
It was the transfer of Mobio Talks, subscribe to our youtube channel , so as not to miss the new releases. If you have your own questions for Max - ask in the comments.
Source: https://habr.com/ru/post/322864/
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