Mark Shuttleworth: "The time of massive sales of desktops on Linux has not come yet"
Partial translation of the interview of the founder of the Ubuntu project to the derStandard.at website.
In the fall of 2004, a new distribution appeared in the Linux world - Ubuntu. It quickly became popular, and currently occupies the top of the distribution list on the Distrowatch website. Ubuntu is a project started by Mark Shuttleworth, a millionaire from South Africa who made a fortune selling his business (Thawte) to Verisign, which, in fact, allowed him to finance Ubuntu from his personal funds.
')
derStandard.at: Ubuntu was originally considered a very modern distribution. Is it fair today? For example, the current openSUSE uses significantly more modern technologies for the desktop like Beagle and Compiz .
Of course. I respect the work of teams of other distros, but at the same time, I know that Ubuntu is a very productive community, and therefore some serious innovations are being made in our country. In particular, the latest release of Ubuntu includes a complete set of tracking application errors , allowing users to inform our developers about problems in the system. This is a huge step forward in improving the quality of desktops in general.
In addition, we have new-fashioned 3D effects, although they are not included by default, due to their dampness and instability.
Thanks to the free software world, we can both quickly integrate the useful technologies of other distributions and create our own using our own community.
derStandard.at: Unlike Novell or Red Hat, there are not so many hackers in Ubuntu. It is doubtful whether the Ubuntu team is able to fully develop its own distribution, and not to go along the beaten track of others.
This is absolutely wrong. We employ about 50 programmers, and we continue to replenish the staff with the best specialists from our community, as well as from Debian and others. Ubuntu was originally created as a project that works closely with the free software community.
For example, take a look at the review of Milestone on launchpad.net , there is a complete list of features (features) that were planned for this release and their different degrees of readiness - all this is the work of the community and regular Canonical employees. I think you will agree that the list is quite serious. And this is in addition to working on GNOME, OpenOffice.org, and also at the kernel level.
derStandard.at: And yet: Edgy Eft and Feisty Fawn turned out to be more "conservative" than planned.
In fact, there is only one addition that I really wanted to see in these releases, namely the default included Compiz or Beryl. We were unable to do this due to the dampness of these applications. Feisty Compiz is installed but not enabled by default - just tick the checkbox to enable it.
And besides, I do not always do what I want. I am only one person in a large community.
derStandard.at: Despite the fact that you urged the Ubuntu community to “have fun” and include “all newfangled things” in the release, not much was done in the end.
I do not agree. For example, in Edgy we completely rewrote init (which was done for the first time in the last fifteen years). This is a fundamental work, and other distributions, such as Debian and Fedora, will implement it. Needless to say, Edgy or Feisty were a failure only because Compiz (which is being developed by Novell) was not included.
derStandard.at: It seems that one of the reasons that Compiz was not included in Feisty Fawn is not high-quality open (free) drivers. Why do you think the situation will change by the next release?
It's not about the drivers. The applications themselves - Compiz or Beryl - are flawed. If it were for drivers, we would use proprietary ones.
derStandard.at: So if Compiz is finalized, will it be included in Gusty Gibbon (the next release after Feisty Fawn)?
This is not yet decided. This will depend on the decision of the technical group and the Community Council. But earlier we did this: if there is some useful and necessary free software, mature enough to include it in the desktop, we used proprietary drivers, in the absence of free ones. I think we will do the same with Compiz if it “ripens”.
derStandard.at: By announcing Gusty Gibbon, you also announced the “absolutely free” flavor of Ubuntu. What did you mean?
First of all, this new type of Ubuntu will use exclusively free not only application software, but also firmware, as well as all sorts of content. Now the firmware is rarely supplied with the source code, but now we will not use the firmware without access to the source code.
There is also a lot of diverse content - like PDF files, etc. - the ability to edit which is closed, but for which there is an editable document source, we will not include content without an accessible source, this applies to absolutely all content.
We are expanding our “concept of freedom”, it includes not only free application programs, but also firmware and content, and in this sense we will go far ahead with respect to other distributions.
derStandard.at: With Long time support (LTS) (“Long-term support”) in the Dapper Drake release you entered the corporate market. How do you position yourself in this market, given that Red Hat and Novell offer much more administrative tools for corporations? Why would large or medium-sized companies that need centralized management prefer Ubuntu over Red Hat Enterprise Linux or SUSE Linux Enterprise?
Indeed, we do not have that additional proprietary software that Novell offers, but we are sure that we provide the best free system, both for the commercial environment - both Oracle and DB2, and for free systems. I think we should not implement proprietary solutions in Linux. We are not going to sell commercial proprietary software, attracting people with the Linux sign.
derStandard.at: But the point is not only proprietary software, the problem is that you don’t have centralized management solutions, which in SUSE, for example, is implemented using YAST and Zenworks, besides, you don’t have security systems AppArmor or SELinux.
Yes, we do not have AppArmor, but work has begun on implementing SELinux. But in general, we believe that these applications are not yet ready for widespread use, because by default we do not include them.
derStandard.at: And what about centralized management? This is very important for corporate users, but you do not have it.
Right. But, again, although we do not have our own solutions for this, we know that people use Ubuntu, including in very large configurations, without difficulty finding solutions on their own - you probably know that Google uses Ubuntu on all developers' desktops.
I understand - you are hinting that Ubuntu is new to the corporate market, but it is surmountable.
derStandard.at: Most Ubuntu users are “technical enthusiasts”, or, in Russian, geeks. Do you plan to change the situation, to reach less trained users?
In general, Ubuntu in some cases may be a better option than Windows. Not everywhere, and not always - but here and there.
Programmers tell us that parents install Ubuntu, if only because they don’t have to worry about spyware and virus protection, and it’s easy to maintain such a computer remotely and update software. They will no longer be called with complaints that "the computer does not work" or "the provider says that I have viruses." Ubuntu has everything you need - web, mail, office, etc., for such Ubuntu users is a great option.
In addition, Ubuntu is good in call-centers or offices, where everyone works in web-applications. Lufthansa, for example, distributes Ubuntu laptops to its pilots, since they constantly use WiFi in different hotels, and they do not need viruses or spyware. In short, Ubuntu has quite a few applications among ordinary users.
But not everywhere, of course, totally agree.
Here, for example, Ubuntu definitely suits me, and I am very picky.
derStandard.at: So, when can I go to the store and take a disk with Ubuntu from the shelf?
You can already do this in Brazil, China, Russia, Ukraine. But not here, in Europe, and not in North America.
I certainly do not propose to large IT companies to install Linux on user PCs, since I understand the consequences of the fact that Linux users will be installed, thinking that this is a cheap version of Windows. This will be a serious problem for companies selling computers. I think the time has not yet come the massive sales of desktops on Linux. But in strategic target markets, such as the workstation market or in similar new sectors, such opportunities already exist, and we are working with companies to use these opportunities.
derStandard.at: So Ubuntu will be installed on Dell computers?
Time will tell.
derStandard.at: Are there active negotiations on this issue?
I would not like to say anything in advance.
derStandard.at: Initially, you financed Ubuntu from your personal funds, has anything changed in this plan now?
Yes, the situation is gradually changing, but Ubuntu is still dependent on my funding. For me, this is an excellent way to invest money and at the same time a philanthropic project. Millions of people now have free access to modern and reliable technologies. This can serve as an impetus for them to start their own business, study technologies, and become developers.
At the same time, for me it is a challenge to create something that the world has not yet seen. A world-wide free enterprise-quality infrastructure, with commercial support and a commercial environment, but also freely available to those who do not need paid support. This is my personal goal.
derStandard.at: Do you already have large customers who enjoy paid LTS support?
Of course. Some large organizations that use Ubuntu and are fully capable of servicing themselves are gradually moving to using the OS in more and more critical configurations, and, sooner or later, they turn to us, just to be sure that they can get our expert support if they need it.
But I want to note once again: Ubuntu is definitely a new player in the corporate market, one should not expect that everything is perfect, but I am extremely pleased with our progress in this direction.
derStandard.at: The Debian 4.0 release was recently released. On your blog, you congratulated the Debian team on this. How important are new Debian releases for Ubuntu now?
The release itself is not so important for us. What is really important is the state of affairs in the Debian community, the participation of developers in Debian unstable is what we use as the basis of our releases. Debian is an extremely important partner. I am glad that they released Etch, I am glad that they remain a wonderful community. I think this is one of the best free software communities in the world, like the kernel community, GNOME and KDE.
derStandard.at: Have you tried the latest Windows? What are your impressions?
In general, I did not use the final release of Vista, but I tried to run Vista Beta in VMWare, but not very successfully, but in general, I see that they have reached a new level. In principle, I would say that Microsoft is making great applications and a lot of innovative work. I didn’t see anything in Vista that would shake me, but, in general, I didn’t use it much.
derStandard.at: What is more popular: Ubuntu or Kubuntu?
The GNOME version is downloaded almost twice as often as KDE. But KDE is still a very important community, as a source of innovation. I am very interested in working on KDE 4, and I am glad that a lot of this is being done in Ubuntu.
In the fall of 2004, a new distribution appeared in the Linux world - Ubuntu. It quickly became popular, and currently occupies the top of the distribution list on the Distrowatch website. Ubuntu is a project started by Mark Shuttleworth, a millionaire from South Africa who made a fortune selling his business (Thawte) to Verisign, which, in fact, allowed him to finance Ubuntu from his personal funds.
')
derStandard.at: Ubuntu was originally considered a very modern distribution. Is it fair today? For example, the current openSUSE uses significantly more modern technologies for the desktop like Beagle and Compiz .
Of course. I respect the work of teams of other distros, but at the same time, I know that Ubuntu is a very productive community, and therefore some serious innovations are being made in our country. In particular, the latest release of Ubuntu includes a complete set of tracking application errors , allowing users to inform our developers about problems in the system. This is a huge step forward in improving the quality of desktops in general.
In addition, we have new-fashioned 3D effects, although they are not included by default, due to their dampness and instability.
Thanks to the free software world, we can both quickly integrate the useful technologies of other distributions and create our own using our own community.
derStandard.at: Unlike Novell or Red Hat, there are not so many hackers in Ubuntu. It is doubtful whether the Ubuntu team is able to fully develop its own distribution, and not to go along the beaten track of others.
This is absolutely wrong. We employ about 50 programmers, and we continue to replenish the staff with the best specialists from our community, as well as from Debian and others. Ubuntu was originally created as a project that works closely with the free software community.
For example, take a look at the review of Milestone on launchpad.net , there is a complete list of features (features) that were planned for this release and their different degrees of readiness - all this is the work of the community and regular Canonical employees. I think you will agree that the list is quite serious. And this is in addition to working on GNOME, OpenOffice.org, and also at the kernel level.
derStandard.at: And yet: Edgy Eft and Feisty Fawn turned out to be more "conservative" than planned.
In fact, there is only one addition that I really wanted to see in these releases, namely the default included Compiz or Beryl. We were unable to do this due to the dampness of these applications. Feisty Compiz is installed but not enabled by default - just tick the checkbox to enable it.
And besides, I do not always do what I want. I am only one person in a large community.
derStandard.at: Despite the fact that you urged the Ubuntu community to “have fun” and include “all newfangled things” in the release, not much was done in the end.
I do not agree. For example, in Edgy we completely rewrote init (which was done for the first time in the last fifteen years). This is a fundamental work, and other distributions, such as Debian and Fedora, will implement it. Needless to say, Edgy or Feisty were a failure only because Compiz (which is being developed by Novell) was not included.
derStandard.at: It seems that one of the reasons that Compiz was not included in Feisty Fawn is not high-quality open (free) drivers. Why do you think the situation will change by the next release?
It's not about the drivers. The applications themselves - Compiz or Beryl - are flawed. If it were for drivers, we would use proprietary ones.
derStandard.at: So if Compiz is finalized, will it be included in Gusty Gibbon (the next release after Feisty Fawn)?
This is not yet decided. This will depend on the decision of the technical group and the Community Council. But earlier we did this: if there is some useful and necessary free software, mature enough to include it in the desktop, we used proprietary drivers, in the absence of free ones. I think we will do the same with Compiz if it “ripens”.
derStandard.at: By announcing Gusty Gibbon, you also announced the “absolutely free” flavor of Ubuntu. What did you mean?
First of all, this new type of Ubuntu will use exclusively free not only application software, but also firmware, as well as all sorts of content. Now the firmware is rarely supplied with the source code, but now we will not use the firmware without access to the source code.
There is also a lot of diverse content - like PDF files, etc. - the ability to edit which is closed, but for which there is an editable document source, we will not include content without an accessible source, this applies to absolutely all content.
We are expanding our “concept of freedom”, it includes not only free application programs, but also firmware and content, and in this sense we will go far ahead with respect to other distributions.
derStandard.at: With Long time support (LTS) (“Long-term support”) in the Dapper Drake release you entered the corporate market. How do you position yourself in this market, given that Red Hat and Novell offer much more administrative tools for corporations? Why would large or medium-sized companies that need centralized management prefer Ubuntu over Red Hat Enterprise Linux or SUSE Linux Enterprise?
Indeed, we do not have that additional proprietary software that Novell offers, but we are sure that we provide the best free system, both for the commercial environment - both Oracle and DB2, and for free systems. I think we should not implement proprietary solutions in Linux. We are not going to sell commercial proprietary software, attracting people with the Linux sign.
derStandard.at: But the point is not only proprietary software, the problem is that you don’t have centralized management solutions, which in SUSE, for example, is implemented using YAST and Zenworks, besides, you don’t have security systems AppArmor or SELinux.
Yes, we do not have AppArmor, but work has begun on implementing SELinux. But in general, we believe that these applications are not yet ready for widespread use, because by default we do not include them.
derStandard.at: And what about centralized management? This is very important for corporate users, but you do not have it.
Right. But, again, although we do not have our own solutions for this, we know that people use Ubuntu, including in very large configurations, without difficulty finding solutions on their own - you probably know that Google uses Ubuntu on all developers' desktops.
I understand - you are hinting that Ubuntu is new to the corporate market, but it is surmountable.
derStandard.at: Most Ubuntu users are “technical enthusiasts”, or, in Russian, geeks. Do you plan to change the situation, to reach less trained users?
In general, Ubuntu in some cases may be a better option than Windows. Not everywhere, and not always - but here and there.
Programmers tell us that parents install Ubuntu, if only because they don’t have to worry about spyware and virus protection, and it’s easy to maintain such a computer remotely and update software. They will no longer be called with complaints that "the computer does not work" or "the provider says that I have viruses." Ubuntu has everything you need - web, mail, office, etc., for such Ubuntu users is a great option.
In addition, Ubuntu is good in call-centers or offices, where everyone works in web-applications. Lufthansa, for example, distributes Ubuntu laptops to its pilots, since they constantly use WiFi in different hotels, and they do not need viruses or spyware. In short, Ubuntu has quite a few applications among ordinary users.
But not everywhere, of course, totally agree.
Here, for example, Ubuntu definitely suits me, and I am very picky.
derStandard.at: So, when can I go to the store and take a disk with Ubuntu from the shelf?
You can already do this in Brazil, China, Russia, Ukraine. But not here, in Europe, and not in North America.
I certainly do not propose to large IT companies to install Linux on user PCs, since I understand the consequences of the fact that Linux users will be installed, thinking that this is a cheap version of Windows. This will be a serious problem for companies selling computers. I think the time has not yet come the massive sales of desktops on Linux. But in strategic target markets, such as the workstation market or in similar new sectors, such opportunities already exist, and we are working with companies to use these opportunities.
derStandard.at: So Ubuntu will be installed on Dell computers?
Time will tell.
derStandard.at: Are there active negotiations on this issue?
I would not like to say anything in advance.
derStandard.at: Initially, you financed Ubuntu from your personal funds, has anything changed in this plan now?
Yes, the situation is gradually changing, but Ubuntu is still dependent on my funding. For me, this is an excellent way to invest money and at the same time a philanthropic project. Millions of people now have free access to modern and reliable technologies. This can serve as an impetus for them to start their own business, study technologies, and become developers.
At the same time, for me it is a challenge to create something that the world has not yet seen. A world-wide free enterprise-quality infrastructure, with commercial support and a commercial environment, but also freely available to those who do not need paid support. This is my personal goal.
derStandard.at: Do you already have large customers who enjoy paid LTS support?
Of course. Some large organizations that use Ubuntu and are fully capable of servicing themselves are gradually moving to using the OS in more and more critical configurations, and, sooner or later, they turn to us, just to be sure that they can get our expert support if they need it.
But I want to note once again: Ubuntu is definitely a new player in the corporate market, one should not expect that everything is perfect, but I am extremely pleased with our progress in this direction.
derStandard.at: The Debian 4.0 release was recently released. On your blog, you congratulated the Debian team on this. How important are new Debian releases for Ubuntu now?
The release itself is not so important for us. What is really important is the state of affairs in the Debian community, the participation of developers in Debian unstable is what we use as the basis of our releases. Debian is an extremely important partner. I am glad that they released Etch, I am glad that they remain a wonderful community. I think this is one of the best free software communities in the world, like the kernel community, GNOME and KDE.
derStandard.at: Have you tried the latest Windows? What are your impressions?
In general, I did not use the final release of Vista, but I tried to run Vista Beta in VMWare, but not very successfully, but in general, I see that they have reached a new level. In principle, I would say that Microsoft is making great applications and a lot of innovative work. I didn’t see anything in Vista that would shake me, but, in general, I didn’t use it much.
derStandard.at: What is more popular: Ubuntu or Kubuntu?
The GNOME version is downloaded almost twice as often as KDE. But KDE is still a very important community, as a source of innovation. I am very interested in working on KDE 4, and I am glad that a lot of this is being done in Ubuntu.
Source: https://habr.com/ru/post/30992/
All Articles