Jacob Fine: “We will not hire Indian programmers just because they cost half”
Introducing the fourth issue of a podcast about technologies, processes, infrastructure, and people in IT companies. Today, CTOcast hosts Jacob Fine, co-founder of Farata Systems and SuranceBay.
Listen to the podcast
1st part of the text version of the podcast
')
Pavel Pavlov: Does the development team share your point of view that you need a financial company for a serious career jump and that this is an important stage? How motivated are they? It is clear that the trainings and podcasts actively attract developers, but how do they feel after they get into the projects of Farata Systems and SuranceBay?
Jacob Fine: To be honest, I very simply look at the world and understand that whatever songs I sing in my podcasts or articles, a specific person needs to feed his family. And if, say, a person is sitting in Belarus or Ukraine, I cannot tell him: “Seryozha, what we are doing is very cool. Let me pay you $ 10 an hour, and you will do it. It's cool! And you will communicate with me. " It does not work. Today there are certain rates. I think in Russia, in Ukraine, people who work in Western countries are not very concerned about making a career with a client. We, in fact, being a client for our people, do not raise titles, do not call anyone senior or super senior. That is, I think that many people work for us primarily because they receive a salary that they probably would not have received elsewhere.
But that's not all. There is still a lot of flexibility in work and in work schedule. Firstly, they can work from home, and secondly, we never stand with a stopwatch. If you want to work in your own schedule - work, if you want to work in the morning, if you want - at night. Well, of course, if you need to be at the rally, then you have to be at the rally. If you have a child and need to take him out of school, then please take him out of school. A man writes to us that he worked, say, eight hours a day, and that was all. And this is the second circumstance that keeps people with us. In the first place, after all, wages, and in the second place - this is super-flexibility and complete trust. I don’t remember a case when we told someone that you spent so much time on this thing, but in fact you had to spend half.
Well, the very fact that people work in strong teams is useful to many. That is, they do not build a career in Farata and they will never become heads in Farata, but they build their careers. If one of them decides to leave us, which I would not want, then he will leave. And the people working with us, technically, it seems to me, have grown and the communication skills have also become better. They do not spend years of life on stupidly earning, when, say, went to the North, earned money and returned. Years of life were gone, but earned money. We do not think so, and therefore we work.
Alexander Astapenko: And if developers still leave Farata and SuranceBay, then why?
Jacob Fine: There was one unpleasant incident many years ago. The person who literally worked for a month agreed behind our backs with a client, a small company in Australia, and it’s clear that the client suggested to him: “That you work for Farata, let me directly pay you better.”
Except for this incident, it may have been, of course, for all these years, but I don’t remember people leaving us. Do not leave. People who started with us, 2006, 2007 - work. Why do they work? It can be seen suits them. But recently, just recently, one person left us here in America. Why did he leave? He was offered a good position as an architect in another company, and he decided to build a career there. He was a consultant here, but he was offered growth and a career there and this is important for him today. No one detained anyone, did not hold back, we will continue to communicate. And I understand this, respect and do not see anything bad in it. We are still a small company. If a person sees his career in a larger company, and if someone does not like to be just a consultant on the project, but he wants to grow in his position, to earn some other money, perhaps, to have his own office, please. Therefore, leaving Farata is not a tragedy if it occurs. That's life.
Alexander Astapenko: I remember in one of your podcasts you said that it was very important to be in the top 20%, for what it would not have taken. Conventionally, if you are a beekeeper, then in beekeeping, and if you are a Java developer, then, in fact, be an expert in the first 20%. When Adobe buried Flex a couple of years ago, you were faced with the choice of where to go next, since you were in that first 20%, if not 10%, of Flex in the States. Then you switched to HTML5, JavaScript. How was this care decision made?
Jacob Fine: The Pareto Principle, 20/80, yes, indeed, I said so. But if you hit 20%, I do not think that you are an expert. If you say that you knew us in Adobe, because we were in 20 or 10%, it is not. We were in 3%, I guess. Here is an expert. 20% is stability, which allows you not to worry too much about what I will do if I get fired tomorrow. Find a job. That's all.
Why did we go to HTML5? To not go against the wind. That is, this trend, although so far we have quite a lot of development on Flex and so far we believe that Flex is today the most productive web application development environment. Flex and Adobe AIR. When we began to give work on HTML5, JavaScript, CSS, we immediately saw a drop in the productivity of our programmers. What can be done in Flex in a day can be done in five in HTML5. We are still not very happy with what is happening in HTML5, but we understand that the world is going there and we need to go there. It takes time to go there. Here is a book recently published, Enterprise Web Development , which was written by our engineers, including myself. We are still looking right and left, thinking what to do and how to be productive.
We hope that the Google Dart language is more productive. And today, a pair of Google Dart and the Angular framework, which has a port on Dart, can somehow come close in efficiency to Flex. Plus, there are no problems with the need for plugins in the browser, like Flash Player, for example. We plan to conduct training within the company so that people can transfer to Dart. And, most likely, we will come to Ukraine, maybe to Belarus with this training and will conduct it simply as a public class for programmers who are interested.
Today we believe that HTML5 is more or less the right medium. Although some concerns I have Google, which is known for the fact that they can throw a toy if it is not interesting to them. This is the first. Secondly, Google is completely in a different business, and I don’t see them pushing Dart into an enterprise. At one time, when Adobe promoted Flex, they did an important job. I don’t know by what means and how they did it, with whom they played golf, maybe from top managers of large companies. Adobe had clients — financial, telecommunications, entertainment — and they somehow managed to push this framework into the enterprise. I don’t see it with Dart, I don’t see Google making any powerful effort in this direction. And from the inside there will always be opposition. In large companies, there will be an architecture group that decides on which framework to use and which will always be against: “The standard is HTML5, JavaScript, CSS. And do not break us, and do not spoil us, and so on. " But for startups, for those who want to find something really productive, and not what the boss requires, I believe that this is the right environment, and we are investing power there today. So if you see our training announcement on Dart, please.
Pavel Pavlov: And from the point of view of the backend, are there any threats to Java as the main choice for the language of backend development? And are there any alternatives, even if not now, but in the long term?
Jacob Fine: I do not see, to be honest. Java is a very stable platform. And judging by what I see, probably, most of the server side in the enterprise is written in Java. And not only in the enterprise. In second place, probably, is .NET, but Java with a serious margin ahead.
10 million people around the world are engaged in Java professionally, that is, they get paid for it. A huge community, and the culture is such that if I know something, then I have to lay it out and tell others. Each project manager assesses the risk when choosing a programming language. With Java, the risk that I will not find a solution to a problem or I will have a problem to hire a programmer is very small. In addition, it is productive and stable. I do not see any replacement for Java in the next five years in terms of server development. I am not saying: "Drop everything you do and go to Java." Not. If you work on .NET, if it suits you, .NET is also a good platform. But not as good as Java. Java has problems on the client, unfortunately, but there is nothing better on the server. Therefore, for myself, I don’t think that I will have to change to some other language, although I’m happy to learn other programming languages and I think that a programmer should be a polyglot. The programmer who calls himself a senior Java developer is boring. Everyone should have a set. A certain trend that I see is what is called IoT (The Internet of Things), when the coffee maker will talk to the microwave. This is something that will develop, because the number of devices is growing. Previously, there was only a desktop, but now look at what is happening, where you can execute programs. Yes, anywhere. Soon Java will work in a teapot.
Alexander Astapenko: Jacob, and if in 92 you would not have gone to the USA, would Farata Systems and SuranceBay be possible? What do you think?
Jacob Fine: These companies definitely would not exist. If I had not left, it would be a mistake for me specifically. When I left, it was financially arranged very well. We had a small business, that is, I earned several times more than an ordinary engineer, but I did not see much development there. In America, I think, the environment for a person who wants to do programming or startups is much more favorable. You see, when you hear about some visits, about some cuts, if they give me 10 million dollars for a startup, then I don’t even think that I have to give Uncle Vasya 5 because he knocked these 10 million for me . There is another way, of course, and here, too, no one does anything for nothing.
I don’t know what would have happened if I had stayed in Kiev, but I’d probably have a fairly good structure. Would do programming exactly. Yes, actually, even now I would love to go to trainings in Kiev. I am very pleased, I love to train and I will probably go to Ukraine for a while.
Alexander Astapenko: Jacob, can you literally say a few words at the end of our podcast?
Jacob Fine: I can literally say a few words for beginning young programmers. If you do not think that this profession is accidental for you, then you should actively pursue your career. Of course, there are some people who went into programming, because there, as they say, money is being given now. But I believe that every young man who has fallen into this profession and loves it should invest in himself, in his trainings, in the study of other languages.
Sometimes I notice in people who work in outsourcing companies in Ukraine or Belarus that they live according to the principle: “Money in the morning, chairs in the evening”. Here you give me something, and then for that I will do something to you. It seems to me that the opposite would be better and more correct. That is, give, do something, not for me, give, of course, but for the community. Develop, share, communicate with people, go to trainings. I heard that in some situations, people and trainings do not want to go, in the same Kiev, because they do not need it. Why should I go for training if the market is already good? And if tomorrow you fire me here, recruits will run after me. I think this is the wrong attitude to the profession.
And with pleasure we will continue to work with Ukraine, with Belarus, and with Russian programmers. I constantly receive letters from India, Pakistan. Here we have a team, it costs three kopecks. I immediately delete them, because I trust more that school, the education system that I know and which I see. And we will not change anything in this regard. We will not hire Indian programmers just because they cost half. Although I don’t want to say anything bad about Indian programmers, I worked with many strong programmers here.
Listen to the podcast
1st part of the text version of the podcast
')
Text version of the podcast (2nd part)
About the team
Pavel Pavlov: Does the development team share your point of view that you need a financial company for a serious career jump and that this is an important stage? How motivated are they? It is clear that the trainings and podcasts actively attract developers, but how do they feel after they get into the projects of Farata Systems and SuranceBay?
Jacob Fine: To be honest, I very simply look at the world and understand that whatever songs I sing in my podcasts or articles, a specific person needs to feed his family. And if, say, a person is sitting in Belarus or Ukraine, I cannot tell him: “Seryozha, what we are doing is very cool. Let me pay you $ 10 an hour, and you will do it. It's cool! And you will communicate with me. " It does not work. Today there are certain rates. I think in Russia, in Ukraine, people who work in Western countries are not very concerned about making a career with a client. We, in fact, being a client for our people, do not raise titles, do not call anyone senior or super senior. That is, I think that many people work for us primarily because they receive a salary that they probably would not have received elsewhere.
But that's not all. There is still a lot of flexibility in work and in work schedule. Firstly, they can work from home, and secondly, we never stand with a stopwatch. If you want to work in your own schedule - work, if you want to work in the morning, if you want - at night. Well, of course, if you need to be at the rally, then you have to be at the rally. If you have a child and need to take him out of school, then please take him out of school. A man writes to us that he worked, say, eight hours a day, and that was all. And this is the second circumstance that keeps people with us. In the first place, after all, wages, and in the second place - this is super-flexibility and complete trust. I don’t remember a case when we told someone that you spent so much time on this thing, but in fact you had to spend half.
Well, the very fact that people work in strong teams is useful to many. That is, they do not build a career in Farata and they will never become heads in Farata, but they build their careers. If one of them decides to leave us, which I would not want, then he will leave. And the people working with us, technically, it seems to me, have grown and the communication skills have also become better. They do not spend years of life on stupidly earning, when, say, went to the North, earned money and returned. Years of life were gone, but earned money. We do not think so, and therefore we work.
Alexander Astapenko: And if developers still leave Farata and SuranceBay, then why?
Jacob Fine: There was one unpleasant incident many years ago. The person who literally worked for a month agreed behind our backs with a client, a small company in Australia, and it’s clear that the client suggested to him: “That you work for Farata, let me directly pay you better.”
Except for this incident, it may have been, of course, for all these years, but I don’t remember people leaving us. Do not leave. People who started with us, 2006, 2007 - work. Why do they work? It can be seen suits them. But recently, just recently, one person left us here in America. Why did he leave? He was offered a good position as an architect in another company, and he decided to build a career there. He was a consultant here, but he was offered growth and a career there and this is important for him today. No one detained anyone, did not hold back, we will continue to communicate. And I understand this, respect and do not see anything bad in it. We are still a small company. If a person sees his career in a larger company, and if someone does not like to be just a consultant on the project, but he wants to grow in his position, to earn some other money, perhaps, to have his own office, please. Therefore, leaving Farata is not a tragedy if it occurs. That's life.
About technology
Alexander Astapenko: I remember in one of your podcasts you said that it was very important to be in the top 20%, for what it would not have taken. Conventionally, if you are a beekeeper, then in beekeeping, and if you are a Java developer, then, in fact, be an expert in the first 20%. When Adobe buried Flex a couple of years ago, you were faced with the choice of where to go next, since you were in that first 20%, if not 10%, of Flex in the States. Then you switched to HTML5, JavaScript. How was this care decision made?
Jacob Fine: The Pareto Principle, 20/80, yes, indeed, I said so. But if you hit 20%, I do not think that you are an expert. If you say that you knew us in Adobe, because we were in 20 or 10%, it is not. We were in 3%, I guess. Here is an expert. 20% is stability, which allows you not to worry too much about what I will do if I get fired tomorrow. Find a job. That's all.
Why did we go to HTML5? To not go against the wind. That is, this trend, although so far we have quite a lot of development on Flex and so far we believe that Flex is today the most productive web application development environment. Flex and Adobe AIR. When we began to give work on HTML5, JavaScript, CSS, we immediately saw a drop in the productivity of our programmers. What can be done in Flex in a day can be done in five in HTML5. We are still not very happy with what is happening in HTML5, but we understand that the world is going there and we need to go there. It takes time to go there. Here is a book recently published, Enterprise Web Development , which was written by our engineers, including myself. We are still looking right and left, thinking what to do and how to be productive.
We hope that the Google Dart language is more productive. And today, a pair of Google Dart and the Angular framework, which has a port on Dart, can somehow come close in efficiency to Flex. Plus, there are no problems with the need for plugins in the browser, like Flash Player, for example. We plan to conduct training within the company so that people can transfer to Dart. And, most likely, we will come to Ukraine, maybe to Belarus with this training and will conduct it simply as a public class for programmers who are interested.
Today we believe that HTML5 is more or less the right medium. Although some concerns I have Google, which is known for the fact that they can throw a toy if it is not interesting to them. This is the first. Secondly, Google is completely in a different business, and I don’t see them pushing Dart into an enterprise. At one time, when Adobe promoted Flex, they did an important job. I don’t know by what means and how they did it, with whom they played golf, maybe from top managers of large companies. Adobe had clients — financial, telecommunications, entertainment — and they somehow managed to push this framework into the enterprise. I don’t see it with Dart, I don’t see Google making any powerful effort in this direction. And from the inside there will always be opposition. In large companies, there will be an architecture group that decides on which framework to use and which will always be against: “The standard is HTML5, JavaScript, CSS. And do not break us, and do not spoil us, and so on. " But for startups, for those who want to find something really productive, and not what the boss requires, I believe that this is the right environment, and we are investing power there today. So if you see our training announcement on Dart, please.
Pavel Pavlov: And from the point of view of the backend, are there any threats to Java as the main choice for the language of backend development? And are there any alternatives, even if not now, but in the long term?
Jacob Fine: I do not see, to be honest. Java is a very stable platform. And judging by what I see, probably, most of the server side in the enterprise is written in Java. And not only in the enterprise. In second place, probably, is .NET, but Java with a serious margin ahead.
10 million people around the world are engaged in Java professionally, that is, they get paid for it. A huge community, and the culture is such that if I know something, then I have to lay it out and tell others. Each project manager assesses the risk when choosing a programming language. With Java, the risk that I will not find a solution to a problem or I will have a problem to hire a programmer is very small. In addition, it is productive and stable. I do not see any replacement for Java in the next five years in terms of server development. I am not saying: "Drop everything you do and go to Java." Not. If you work on .NET, if it suits you, .NET is also a good platform. But not as good as Java. Java has problems on the client, unfortunately, but there is nothing better on the server. Therefore, for myself, I don’t think that I will have to change to some other language, although I’m happy to learn other programming languages and I think that a programmer should be a polyglot. The programmer who calls himself a senior Java developer is boring. Everyone should have a set. A certain trend that I see is what is called IoT (The Internet of Things), when the coffee maker will talk to the microwave. This is something that will develop, because the number of devices is growing. Previously, there was only a desktop, but now look at what is happening, where you can execute programs. Yes, anywhere. Soon Java will work in a teapot.
If…
Alexander Astapenko: Jacob, and if in 92 you would not have gone to the USA, would Farata Systems and SuranceBay be possible? What do you think?
Jacob Fine: These companies definitely would not exist. If I had not left, it would be a mistake for me specifically. When I left, it was financially arranged very well. We had a small business, that is, I earned several times more than an ordinary engineer, but I did not see much development there. In America, I think, the environment for a person who wants to do programming or startups is much more favorable. You see, when you hear about some visits, about some cuts, if they give me 10 million dollars for a startup, then I don’t even think that I have to give Uncle Vasya 5 because he knocked these 10 million for me . There is another way, of course, and here, too, no one does anything for nothing.
I don’t know what would have happened if I had stayed in Kiev, but I’d probably have a fairly good structure. Would do programming exactly. Yes, actually, even now I would love to go to trainings in Kiev. I am very pleased, I love to train and I will probably go to Ukraine for a while.
Alexander Astapenko: Jacob, can you literally say a few words at the end of our podcast?
Jacob Fine: I can literally say a few words for beginning young programmers. If you do not think that this profession is accidental for you, then you should actively pursue your career. Of course, there are some people who went into programming, because there, as they say, money is being given now. But I believe that every young man who has fallen into this profession and loves it should invest in himself, in his trainings, in the study of other languages.
Sometimes I notice in people who work in outsourcing companies in Ukraine or Belarus that they live according to the principle: “Money in the morning, chairs in the evening”. Here you give me something, and then for that I will do something to you. It seems to me that the opposite would be better and more correct. That is, give, do something, not for me, give, of course, but for the community. Develop, share, communicate with people, go to trainings. I heard that in some situations, people and trainings do not want to go, in the same Kiev, because they do not need it. Why should I go for training if the market is already good? And if tomorrow you fire me here, recruits will run after me. I think this is the wrong attitude to the profession.
And with pleasure we will continue to work with Ukraine, with Belarus, and with Russian programmers. I constantly receive letters from India, Pakistan. Here we have a team, it costs three kopecks. I immediately delete them, because I trust more that school, the education system that I know and which I see. And we will not change anything in this regard. We will not hire Indian programmers just because they cost half. Although I don’t want to say anything bad about Indian programmers, I worked with many strong programmers here.
Source: https://habr.com/ru/post/250091/
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