How to become a negotiator - an interview with Dmitry Kotkin
Our two recent video talks about the negotiations scored 40,000 views in two days.
The topic was interesting. And this is not surprising, we negotiate every day. Having seen such an interest in the topic, we persuaded Dmitry Kotkin, the author of these video clips and part-time head of the St. Petersburg Schip negotiator school, to do an interview about how to become a negotiator.
What talked about:
')
Good question, because it is not very clear. Rather, I can tell how I got into the negotiating topics, and why this is the main direction in which I do. The answer is very simple. I worked in my time both with internal and external coaches and freelancers. And when the crisis of 2008 broke out, the question arose of how to make a living. Then the budgets allocated by the companies for training programs were sharply reduced. I worked with several suppliers, that is, several intermediaries who sold me, and I was left without orders. I had no direct contact. I had direct contact with a small number of organizations, but they also stopped working.
And the question arose what to do. Then I decided to create my own brand, my own direction, which I would be interested in doing. And then I began to think: what is interesting to me? I was interested in management, I was interested in training, and I was interested in how people negotiate with each other. By basic education, I am a psychotherapist, and the story of how people negotiate with each other is what needs to be done so that people understand each other — it seemed to me the most interesting and responded in my heart. Telling managers how to manipulate their employees so that they work twenty-four hours and don’t ask for the money I can, too. But I am a little jarred, I'm not interested in it. But to carry out such a missionary task, that is, to make the world a better place, no matter how pathetic it may sound, I am interested. And so I chose a negotiating theme and began to work in it, to turn out a training course.
I have not just a medical, I have a military medical education, I graduated from the Kirov Military Medical Academy.
The most interesting story happened at that moment. 1999 year In 1998 I graduated from the Academy, in 1999 I already had an internship. And now the state examinations are approaching, I am a lieutenant. The question becomes how to live on, and what to do. There was a question: to leave the armed forces somewhere for free navigation, or go to serve further. At the preliminary distribution I was offered a training center in Khabarovsk – 49.
In general, the combination of the words "Khabarovsk" and "Forty-nine" already causes some kind of sad associations. It is not even Khabarovsk itself, it is somewhere very far from Khabarovsk. And I really did not want to go far somewhere. And the second point: in order to make a decision on how to build your life, through an acquaintance I found some kind of psychic grandmother who diagnoses from a photo - for a small penny. Understanding that this may be a divorce, I still gave this little penny and my photo to a psychic. The psychic's answer blew my brain and radically changed my life.
The answer was: "Your financial well-being has nothing to do with the armed forces." This answer opened my eyes, and I realized that if I want to earn money, I need to leave the army. And I retired from the army - and from medicine, respectively, because in medicine at that time it would be very difficult for me to earn money. I went on sale. Here is a story.
Colleagues, I continue to learn how to negotiate. Moreover, I want to say that whatever you are a trained negotiator, trained, there will always be someone who is more cunning. Because our ability to communicate depends on our physical condition, mental state. We are not always in a fighting condition - in a fast-thinking.
I had different stories, adventures. I got into a scam - when I was led on a provocation. Aprashka (94-year clothing market in St. Petersburg), the 94th year ... I was in my second year, I think, and now I went to buy a gift for my mother with a certain amount. And there were guys who offered a happy ticket. And I pulled out a ticket, I pulled out my mother's gift - it was a TV. But it was necessary to kill the opponent, who also pulled out the TV, - with its sum. Accordingly, I was left without a gift, and without money. This is one of those stories that I still remember. Very interesting. And there are a lot of such stories I can dig into my memory.
Yes, until 2004, I worked in election teams, in election campaigns ... In 2004, my last campaign was in Tatarstan. There we were engaged not in negotiations, but to a greater degree in the organization of field teams. These are recruitment, training of agitators, picketers, heads of staffs, who work door-to-door in some territory.
We barely engaged in negotiations. The only thing that had to accompany the candidate and prepare for some meetings. But these meetings were primarily public, with an audience, with journalists. And there we acquired our first experience, the first recommendations - how to behave in this or that situation.
You know, firstly, a certain image is complex around IT specialists - that these are some kind of semi-unearthly people. Some otherworldly little bit, strange, walk, mumble something, somewhere gain something. They operate with some obscure concepts - for the layman.
But my vision is that IT companies are now the fastest growing industry, and people there think much faster than in other structures. To say that some situations are more difficult or easier? - they are just more interesting. Because IT-shniki work in project teams, and a lot of cases were about the interaction with the project team of the customer. That is, when you are not the only one leading the negotiations, but you are, and there is still some group of people around you that depends on the results of the negotiations.
This is what I respond to first of all about the IT-sphere. And one moment. Since the pace of development of IT-structures is large, fast, - that people are interested in their self-development. Although it is probably just a feeling, because I got into this environment thanks to Stratoplan.
Oh, what an interesting question! In five minutes? Well, let's try to answer right away. There are several rules when conducting trades.
The first rule: overestimate the price at the start. That is, create the maximum clearing of trades in which you can play.
The second point: come to the negotiations as a game. This is fundamentally important. If for us the deal is very serious, we will most likely ruin it. This is a game that we play, which our opponents play. And you need internal excitement, drive - only in this case, you will be able to take a conscious moderate risk that will allow you to win.
The third point: never agree immediately on the proposals of that side, always try to bargain for something in return. Even if we go forward, we ask for something for this, there must be a concession for the concession.
The fourth point: do not show your dependence on the results of the transaction. Demonstrate the absence of need: that you do not care how your meeting will end. You're just here so that the other side can make some sort of decision that is adequate for it.
This is a very quick response to such a question.
With building personal relationships. If you intend to work with a person for a long time, well and productively, you need to trust each other and that there is an optimal distance between you that allows you to communicate quickly. That is, I would build a personal relationship with the customer. How?
It does not mean to go drink vodka with him or baptize his children. It is rather a discussion, how you see the situation, how it sees the situation, and the conditions, how you will interact. Such a personal contract.
Before we start working, let us agree with you how we will interact, and what we will do in a given situation. That is, knowing the typical problems that arise in the project teams, you can discuss them before you get the ass ... we will cross the ass. Before the advent of ass.
Ass is a professional term that describes a difficult situation that we are in due to force majeure. This is their practice org.consultant.
Returning to a difficult situation, if you know what they are, it is better to discuss in advance what we will do and how we can make sure that such situations do not arise and do not recur. Contract with the customer, and build a relationship that he trusted you. The main thing is trust, then everything will be much easier to solve.
Yes, IT-shnik complain very often.
Usually forced to do more work, and the amount, the cost of the order does not change. You signed up for one volume of work, you are offered to do twice as much, but you will be paid the same way as for the first. In this situation, it is important to clearly state: “Colleagues, what you are offering is a separate additional introduction. We make them add. by agreement, it will cost you some money. ” That is, clearly indicate that you do not want to work for free. This is the position of professionals.
A professional can do the job for free, if he is interested in the high. And he informs the client: look, this is my high, this is interesting to me - I will not take money from you here. But if we are talking about some kind of daily work, then any additional options - to invoice them correctly.
But this is wrong. We said that we were contracting and talking at the start of a relationship: dear friend, if you want to do something, and this is not part of those. task, it will be paid separately. And if you are ready, we will continue to move on. Contracting at the start, you did not speak this moment - and accordingly received the object that I told above.
Of course, there are different cultures, different approaches. I have little experience in multi-cultural interactions. I had to communicate with our non-Orthodox republics, - Tatarstan, Bashkiria. There, of course, has its own characteristics characteristic of the eastern mentality. If in Western culture the main values ​​are time and efficiency (how many units of work we will do for some unit of time), then in Eastern culture an important point is not to rush. There, time does not matter, the main thing is that we trust each other or that we can agree. And no need to hurry. Haste causes aggression, misunderstanding, and so on.
I gave an example at one of the trainings on how intercultural interaction occurs. The real story, I was told it by a person who is engaged in what you asked, Sasha.
Imagine a situation: two negotiation teams, American and Japanese. They are trying to negotiate something. And the Americans make an offer to the Japanese. And in Japanese culture, in order to show that you heard the opponent's proposal, and that you consider it important, you need at least one minute to pause. And imagine the situation: Americans ask a question, make an offer - the Japanese have heard and take a pause in order to show respect for the interlocutor. Americans have enough time for thirty seconds. They understand: damn, something they did not say that. That side is silent. They say: well, God bless him. Let it be different then, let's do it like this. The Japanese look at each other: well, let's do it. Breathing air in the chest - and freeze, showing respect for the other side and its proposal. There are enough Americans for twenty seconds, they start to panic, they again make an offer ... And in this way it is impossible to meet. Contact is impossible due to different perceptions and different rules of negotiation. This story is small about intercultural differences.
What is negotiation? Negotiation is a process. The process of learning is not that difficult - impossible. In order to learn how to communicate effectively with people, the most difficult thing is to abandon the established stereotypes of behavior. This is the most difficult.
I have been watching some of my training participants for years. I have people I see for three, four, five years. And I see how they change, what happens to them. The most difficult thing is to just abandon the pattern of behavior once seen and switch to a new one.
You can go through a bunch of trainings, read a bunch of books - but you get into a typical situation and give a typical reaction that you once taught. Breaking the familiar pattern, going into the experiment is the most difficult thing. And we have a separate training on non-standard behavior in negotiations, very interesting, just now I am finalizing it, finishing it, reworking it. This is the last thing I like to do.
If you initially take the first thing that occurred to me - for some reason, about sales. But sales are the easiest thing in the negotiation process. This is Nikolay Rysyov “Active sales”, this is some kind of basis that I used to sell effectively and well.
Another book is Vladimir Kozlov “Tough Negotiations”. This is a classic. It is a bit depressive, Kozlov out there describes a depressive situation, the essence of which boils down to the fact that the whole world is crap and people are bastards who manipulate each other and spread rot to each other, and treat each other as a resource. But there are a lot of useful recommendations, simple and understandable, unlike Western literature, which is poorly translated and has a lot of water.
The next book is, of course, Jim Camp “Say No First” - although the whole history of the book can be reduced to one sentence. There is a lot of water, but the essence is placed on four pages. In fact, there are extracts from this.
The following is a story about win-win Roger Fisher and William Urey. Fisher and Yuri about the Harvard method of negotiation. Although he has many limitations, both Fisher and Yuri write about it themselves: when it works, and when it does not. But the book is interesting, it is considered a classic again.
There is still Gavin Kennedy, of course, “You can agree on everything!”, There is Vladimir Tarasov, “The art of managerial struggle”, and a separate direction in the Russian educational market - about managerial behavior. Something like this.
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- 8 ways to confront formula needs
- How to put a person in place: 10 real questions about the pressure in the negotiations
The topic was interesting. And this is not surprising, we negotiate every day. Having seen such an interest in the topic, we persuaded Dmitry Kotkin, the author of these video clips and part-time head of the St. Petersburg Schip negotiator school, to do an interview about how to become a negotiator.
What talked about:
- How did Dmitry Kotkin get into the subject of negotiations?
- What were the negotiation failures?
- About work in politics
- What are the specifics of IT-specialists and IT-companies in terms of negotiations?
- 4 main principles of any bidding
- Where to start when you start a project with a new customer
- What to do when a customer pushes new requirements
- The main thing in teaching negotiation
- 6 best books on the negotiations
')
Hello Dima. Thank you for agreeing to give us an interview. We have accumulated several questions: both personally and among our listeners. Let's start traditionally: tell your story, how did you get into the subject of negotiations?
Good question, because it is not very clear. Rather, I can tell how I got into the negotiating topics, and why this is the main direction in which I do. The answer is very simple. I worked in my time both with internal and external coaches and freelancers. And when the crisis of 2008 broke out, the question arose of how to make a living. Then the budgets allocated by the companies for training programs were sharply reduced. I worked with several suppliers, that is, several intermediaries who sold me, and I was left without orders. I had no direct contact. I had direct contact with a small number of organizations, but they also stopped working.
And the question arose what to do. Then I decided to create my own brand, my own direction, which I would be interested in doing. And then I began to think: what is interesting to me? I was interested in management, I was interested in training, and I was interested in how people negotiate with each other. By basic education, I am a psychotherapist, and the story of how people negotiate with each other is what needs to be done so that people understand each other — it seemed to me the most interesting and responded in my heart. Telling managers how to manipulate their employees so that they work twenty-four hours and don’t ask for the money I can, too. But I am a little jarred, I'm not interested in it. But to carry out such a missionary task, that is, to make the world a better place, no matter how pathetic it may sound, I am interested. And so I chose a negotiating theme and began to work in it, to turn out a training course.
You have a medical degree, as far as I know.
I have not just a medical, I have a military medical education, I graduated from the Kirov Military Medical Academy.
Why did you decide to leave medicine?
The most interesting story happened at that moment. 1999 year In 1998 I graduated from the Academy, in 1999 I already had an internship. And now the state examinations are approaching, I am a lieutenant. The question becomes how to live on, and what to do. There was a question: to leave the armed forces somewhere for free navigation, or go to serve further. At the preliminary distribution I was offered a training center in Khabarovsk – 49.
In general, the combination of the words "Khabarovsk" and "Forty-nine" already causes some kind of sad associations. It is not even Khabarovsk itself, it is somewhere very far from Khabarovsk. And I really did not want to go far somewhere. And the second point: in order to make a decision on how to build your life, through an acquaintance I found some kind of psychic grandmother who diagnoses from a photo - for a small penny. Understanding that this may be a divorce, I still gave this little penny and my photo to a psychic. The psychic's answer blew my brain and radically changed my life.
The answer was: "Your financial well-being has nothing to do with the armed forces." This answer opened my eyes, and I realized that if I want to earn money, I need to leave the army. And I retired from the army - and from medicine, respectively, because in medicine at that time it would be very difficult for me to earn money. I went on sale. Here is a story.
Clear. What were your negotiating setbacks that you remembered all along? How generally was the thorny path of learning in the negotiations?
Colleagues, I continue to learn how to negotiate. Moreover, I want to say that whatever you are a trained negotiator, trained, there will always be someone who is more cunning. Because our ability to communicate depends on our physical condition, mental state. We are not always in a fighting condition - in a fast-thinking.
I had different stories, adventures. I got into a scam - when I was led on a provocation. Aprashka (94-year clothing market in St. Petersburg), the 94th year ... I was in my second year, I think, and now I went to buy a gift for my mother with a certain amount. And there were guys who offered a happy ticket. And I pulled out a ticket, I pulled out my mother's gift - it was a TV. But it was necessary to kill the opponent, who also pulled out the TV, - with its sum. Accordingly, I was left without a gift, and without money. This is one of those stories that I still remember. Very interesting. And there are a lot of such stories I can dig into my memory.
You were involved in negotiations and in politics. Can you tell about this experience?
Yes, until 2004, I worked in election teams, in election campaigns ... In 2004, my last campaign was in Tatarstan. There we were engaged not in negotiations, but to a greater degree in the organization of field teams. These are recruitment, training of agitators, picketers, heads of staffs, who work door-to-door in some territory.
We barely engaged in negotiations. The only thing that had to accompany the candidate and prepare for some meetings. But these meetings were primarily public, with an audience, with journalists. And there we acquired our first experience, the first recommendations - how to behave in this or that situation.
I know that you now work a lot with IT companies, with IT people. Together we had four negotiator clubs - mainly for IT people. How easy is it at all? Complicated? How specific is the audience, how are cases specific to people? In general, what are the specifics of IT in terms of negotiations?
You know, firstly, a certain image is complex around IT specialists - that these are some kind of semi-unearthly people. Some otherworldly little bit, strange, walk, mumble something, somewhere gain something. They operate with some obscure concepts - for the layman.
But my vision is that IT companies are now the fastest growing industry, and people there think much faster than in other structures. To say that some situations are more difficult or easier? - they are just more interesting. Because IT-shniki work in project teams, and a lot of cases were about the interaction with the project team of the customer. That is, when you are not the only one leading the negotiations, but you are, and there is still some group of people around you that depends on the results of the negotiations.
This is what I respond to first of all about the IT-sphere. And one moment. Since the pace of development of IT-structures is large, fast, - that people are interested in their self-development. Although it is probably just a feeling, because I got into this environment thanks to Stratoplan.
Come now as a matter of fact. Can you quickly set out the main principles of trading in five minutes? Relatively speaking: there are several commercial offers from different companies, and you need to win yours. What principles should be followed in order for it to win?
Oh, what an interesting question! In five minutes? Well, let's try to answer right away. There are several rules when conducting trades.
The first rule: overestimate the price at the start. That is, create the maximum clearing of trades in which you can play.
The second point: come to the negotiations as a game. This is fundamentally important. If for us the deal is very serious, we will most likely ruin it. This is a game that we play, which our opponents play. And you need internal excitement, drive - only in this case, you will be able to take a conscious moderate risk that will allow you to win.
The third point: never agree immediately on the proposals of that side, always try to bargain for something in return. Even if we go forward, we ask for something for this, there must be a concession for the concession.
The fourth point: do not show your dependence on the results of the transaction. Demonstrate the absence of need: that you do not care how your meeting will end. You're just here so that the other side can make some sort of decision that is adequate for it.
This is a very quick response to such a question.
Great, thank you. Let's continue then specific questions. Suppose you are a project manager, you start a new project with a new customer, with whom you will have to work for a long time and a lot. Where to begin?
With building personal relationships. If you intend to work with a person for a long time, well and productively, you need to trust each other and that there is an optimal distance between you that allows you to communicate quickly. That is, I would build a personal relationship with the customer. How?
It does not mean to go drink vodka with him or baptize his children. It is rather a discussion, how you see the situation, how it sees the situation, and the conditions, how you will interact. Such a personal contract.
Before we start working, let us agree with you how we will interact, and what we will do in a given situation. That is, knowing the typical problems that arise in the project teams, you can discuss them before you get the ass ... we will cross the ass. Before the advent of ass.
Ass is a professional term that describes a difficult situation that we are in due to force majeure. This is their practice org.consultant.
Returning to a difficult situation, if you know what they are, it is better to discuss in advance what we will do and how we can make sure that such situations do not arise and do not recur. Contract with the customer, and build a relationship that he trusted you. The main thing is trust, then everything will be much easier to solve.
Let's continue the topic of work with the customer. For example, in the middle of a project, a customer pushes through new requirements — such a standard pain.
Yes, IT-shnik complain very often.
What are the behaviors, in general, the correct negotiation strategy in this situation?
Usually forced to do more work, and the amount, the cost of the order does not change. You signed up for one volume of work, you are offered to do twice as much, but you will be paid the same way as for the first. In this situation, it is important to clearly state: “Colleagues, what you are offering is a separate additional introduction. We make them add. by agreement, it will cost you some money. ” That is, clearly indicate that you do not want to work for free. This is the position of professionals.
A professional can do the job for free, if he is interested in the high. And he informs the client: look, this is my high, this is interesting to me - I will not take money from you here. But if we are talking about some kind of daily work, then any additional options - to invoice them correctly.
But on the other hand, these requirements ... It may come as a surprise to the customer that he needs to pay money for this, he did not expect it. And you as a professional did not tell him in advance.
But this is wrong. We said that we were contracting and talking at the start of a relationship: dear friend, if you want to do something, and this is not part of those. task, it will be paid separately. And if you are ready, we will continue to move on. Contracting at the start, you did not speak this moment - and accordingly received the object that I told above.
Dim, the question is. Is there any specificity of negotiations with people of other cultures? Surely there is. What can you say about this? What faced? What are the recommendations?
Of course, there are different cultures, different approaches. I have little experience in multi-cultural interactions. I had to communicate with our non-Orthodox republics, - Tatarstan, Bashkiria. There, of course, has its own characteristics characteristic of the eastern mentality. If in Western culture the main values ​​are time and efficiency (how many units of work we will do for some unit of time), then in Eastern culture an important point is not to rush. There, time does not matter, the main thing is that we trust each other or that we can agree. And no need to hurry. Haste causes aggression, misunderstanding, and so on.
I gave an example at one of the trainings on how intercultural interaction occurs. The real story, I was told it by a person who is engaged in what you asked, Sasha.
Imagine a situation: two negotiation teams, American and Japanese. They are trying to negotiate something. And the Americans make an offer to the Japanese. And in Japanese culture, in order to show that you heard the opponent's proposal, and that you consider it important, you need at least one minute to pause. And imagine the situation: Americans ask a question, make an offer - the Japanese have heard and take a pause in order to show respect for the interlocutor. Americans have enough time for thirty seconds. They understand: damn, something they did not say that. That side is silent. They say: well, God bless him. Let it be different then, let's do it like this. The Japanese look at each other: well, let's do it. Breathing air in the chest - and freeze, showing respect for the other side and its proposal. There are enough Americans for twenty seconds, they start to panic, they again make an offer ... And in this way it is impossible to meet. Contact is impossible due to different perceptions and different rules of negotiation. This story is small about intercultural differences.
You have been engaged in training negotiations for a very long time, both offline and online, and we have done joint projects, and we will do joint projects. How difficult is it to learn how to negotiate? From your observations of the audience?
What is negotiation? Negotiation is a process. The process of learning is not that difficult - impossible. In order to learn how to communicate effectively with people, the most difficult thing is to abandon the established stereotypes of behavior. This is the most difficult.
I have been watching some of my training participants for years. I have people I see for three, four, five years. And I see how they change, what happens to them. The most difficult thing is to just abandon the pattern of behavior once seen and switch to a new one.
You can go through a bunch of trainings, read a bunch of books - but you get into a typical situation and give a typical reaction that you once taught. Breaking the familiar pattern, going into the experiment is the most difficult thing. And we have a separate training on non-standard behavior in negotiations, very interesting, just now I am finalizing it, finishing it, reworking it. This is the last thing I like to do.
If you go back to the sources, that is, where to study, what to study, are your favorite negotiation books?
If you initially take the first thing that occurred to me - for some reason, about sales. But sales are the easiest thing in the negotiation process. This is Nikolay Rysyov “Active sales”, this is some kind of basis that I used to sell effectively and well.
Another book is Vladimir Kozlov “Tough Negotiations”. This is a classic. It is a bit depressive, Kozlov out there describes a depressive situation, the essence of which boils down to the fact that the whole world is crap and people are bastards who manipulate each other and spread rot to each other, and treat each other as a resource. But there are a lot of useful recommendations, simple and understandable, unlike Western literature, which is poorly translated and has a lot of water.
The next book is, of course, Jim Camp “Say No First” - although the whole history of the book can be reduced to one sentence. There is a lot of water, but the essence is placed on four pages. In fact, there are extracts from this.
The following is a story about win-win Roger Fisher and William Urey. Fisher and Yuri about the Harvard method of negotiation. Although he has many limitations, both Fisher and Yuri write about it themselves: when it works, and when it does not. But the book is interesting, it is considered a classic again.
There is still Gavin Kennedy, of course, “You can agree on everything!”, There is Vladimir Tarasov, “The art of managerial struggle”, and a separate direction in the Russian educational market - about managerial behavior. Something like this.
, , ?
. , , : , . – , , . : , , ; – - –, . , , – . , – .
, !
—
, . 2014 , : , , - + .
(40,000 ), !
, 8 « ». 8- - + 5- : , , , .
: . , , , , / , .
: - + - ( ).
, : http://www.stratoplan.ru/ngt/formula/
8 8:00 11 23:59 . 15 20:00 .
« »!
. .
, !
PS , .
Source: https://habr.com/ru/post/218523/
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