3 years of the Black Book Manager: What has changed in the industry? Interview with Slava Pankratov
During the 6 years that I have been involved in educational projects for managing people, I have had the opportunity to do interviews with dozens of managers and directors. We had TOP managers of Kaspersky Lab, Oracle, EPAM, Global Logic and other companies - all different people. And I realized that I had not yet done an interview with someone with whom I had long had to do - with my colleague SlavaPankratov .
And then the reason came just in time - three years from the release of the Black Book of the Manager (18+, registration is required), probably the most popular and scandalous book on management. Exactly three years ago, Glory wrote it.
About the ideas embodied in this book, about what has changed in the industry for 3 years, how Kiev Yandex was opened, and why consultants are sometimes called fools by customers.
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3 years have passed since the publication of the PMC. Has something changed in the industry since then?
Oh yeah! A lot, a lot has changed. Salaries have become more, people have become more self-confident, rare deviations have become the norm :)
In fact, everything just got worse, in my humble opinion. In place of rare individuals who were looking for warm, quiet backwaters, where you can sit on the priest and not shine, a generation has appeared that doesn't want to do a damn thing. That is, quite. Not that can not or can not. Does not want. From the first days at work, a person somehow otmazyvatsya from the performance of their duties.
At first I thought that it was me, as a trainer, who stumbled on such people, either directly or through working situations with groups. Nothing. I read blogs, facebooks and twitter managers with great experience and I see how the same thing breaks out here and there: Yes, why not? 11 :)
The work of the manager becomes more difficult. On the one hand, it is necessary to work with an increasingly lazy, for the most part, composition of people. There were never any tough dudes on the market, and now even more so. And if you have a new project and are actively hiring from the market, then you don’t have to expect anything special, no matter how the recruiters try ... Managers either work with it or give up. Surrendered - OK, a small project and a file: they drank. Do not give up - it means intelligent, then let's hang on him 15-20 people - let him drag. Manager matyukatsya, realizes that he himself evil Pinocchio, but pulls. Previously, this was less.
Clever has become harder, stupid to be or pretend to be more profitable.
Such a picture.
I recently spoke with the dean of my ITMO faculty, Vladimir Glebovich Parfenov, who for many years has already become world programming champions. He also complains that he does not recruit people to their pulpits. This is not a rumble at all, that in our time the grass was greener, people were smarter, did we go to competitions and so on? What has changed?
I do not have much statistics. Any statistician will say: This is a private opinion. Yes, this is my personal opinion. In my opinion, it became worse.
I don’t know whether this generation Z has grown up, whether generation Y or the NJ generation, about which only lazy people don’t write right now ... I don’t know. I think just overfed. Now people do not want to work.
I have a friend - one of the coolest, from my point of view, consultants in the field of project management. He is attracted at the stage of project management formation. That is, let's say you are building a plant, a complex system. And a person understands how plants are built, and how projects are done. Industry expert. The patient man.
Recently, even in his Facebook he wrote:
There is no statistics. If you look one-sidedly at our conversation with you, or at the Black Book of the Manager, you may get the impression that everything is bad. No, of course, not everything is bad. But people who do not want to work, it became much more.
I suspect that they will become more and more. Here and the decline in the birth rate of the 90s makes itself felt, and the fact that thanks to the Unified State Exam in Russia and the ZNO in Ukraine, those who had previously simply never got there began to enter the institutions.
Earlier, a troechnik at school could not get into college. And now everyone is lined up in height. And if in front of are not honors, and horoshisty, then troechniki quite a pass. One hundred people lined up, the first fifty took. If the first in the column is a dunce, then we also take all the restlunters.
These people are now graduating from institutions. Someone will work tomorrow, and someone has already found a job. We are already dealing with this generation.
Let me not be offended by those who come to work to really do business. Respect to you and uvazhuha :) But the generation has changed. In my opinion, it became worse.
People who played with the business in one game and tore the ass for the sake of business results, it was always a little. But now it becomes even somehow unfashionable. This trend is killing at all. Sitting at work and getting paid becomes a matter of course. And this is not the case; for salary, you must still do something.
Let's go to the birthday of the book. What prompted you to write the “Black Book of the Manager,” and in general - tell us a little about yourself.
It’s nice to talk about myself, I can talk for a long time, but I will try with the thought not to spread along the tree. (Those who know me personally will laugh here, but I’ll really try to keep it short.)
I really had a career, because at that moment the market was pretty cool. I myself am from Kiev, here the market grew very strongly in 2000-2004. Large IT companies came to the market, which have many branches — basically, it was a large outsourcing. Many people, including myself, grew up in a career because they got a powerful starting kick.
There were few managers, companies were ready to help, pull, pull out, teach - that's exactly why my career quickly went. On the 4th course of the institute I was the head of the testing department. Not because he was the smartest, but because no one wanted to go into software testing, and no one wanted to go to the executives. Everyone wanted to do programming.
And when you have at least one "first part of the department" tag, you want to continue doing this. I became a senior tester who hired all other testers. Now it is called “resource manager”. The position was somehow connected with the management of people: hiring, dismissal, development, training. So I, just, tried training.
In three words, it just happened - it was at the right time in the right place. And somewhere at the same moment, I began to understand that not all managers, like yogurts, are equally useful. And I experienced different managers the hard way - I wanted to work with some, I didn’t want to work with others at all. Periodically he came home and said to his wife: “Well, now they will either be fired, or they will give a bonus”.
I cursed with many, with someone very loud. There were cases when some of our common acquaintances with you in the position then HR directors jumped out into the corridor:
That is, there was a raging personal experience, there were different managers around. And I, of course, at first was not the best manager. And at some point it all came together, and a strong difference was felt: how it was then and how it became now. Then, as you know, the sky was high and the trees were large and the grass was greener. During those 7 years, while I was an engineer, I grew up with the director of technology, everything changed very cool. I can’t say that from the profession of tough (not always pleasant, but tough) people, it turned out to be a refuge for the poor in spirit ... But a lot of obviously not the best people reached into the manager’s profession. Some kind of nagging and arrogance started ...
I remember very well the case when we were standing in the smoking room (I was still smoking) ... And a guy stood next to his team who told us that they were celebrating some regular release yesterday, and in the morning an extremely dissatisfied cleaning lady came up with claims that we were in the kitchen left such srach:
I was so resented then. And here - the manager, not the manager? Shat - get up, take it with you.
At some point I realized that there were a lot of such managers. which you can’t make you wash a mug or write a superfluous letter. And it somehow resonated, we just then already worked with you. And from the set of notes was born such a book. She turned out to be angry, simply because such a mood then existed, and I was extremely dissatisfied with the people who behaved like that. Probably even discrediting the very profession of a manager.
For myself, I briefly turned out to be something :) And where about how you turned out to be director of technology at Yandex Ukraine?
Yes, everything was very simple. At a certain point in time, I rested against the glass ceiling. I decided that I was such a cool technologist. At that time I was tightly connected with testing: I implemented testing and implemented processes, then I discouraged people from introducing tools, then I learned how to calculate all this in the form of numbers.
At some point, together with another person who strongly catalyzed me, we opened the company QA Expert. And they went to engage in consulting.
We existed on free bread for a year. It was very interesting, we discovered a wonderful world of consulting. There were some cool stories ...
Well, well ...
Well, for example, we come to a large bank. We were called to re-outsourcing. That is, the main guys realized that everything was somehow not very simple, and they hired us, the office is young and cheaper. In general, we understood that this work is better done not with our own hands, but with the hands of these young and hot men.
The task was very simple. The management of the bank's IT department changed, they realized that the state was overblown and it was necessary to restore order. I don’t want to rake the heat with my own hands - we hired consultants. Those hired another consultants - that was us. It was necessary to figure out who does what in the unit. A sort of an independent audit. And according to the results some other consulting is possible.
Process auditing is a simple thing. You come and ask each person what he does: in which projects you work, who sets tasks for you, how your working day is built, how it starts, where you enter your work, where your tasks come from, who you report to, etc. And then from the little men you build schemes and arrows to understand the place of each person in this large structure.
And we found a very funny person at 40, who did something like that, but ... in short, the entire IT system of the bank was not very useful. And not a single task of the bank was included in this division, and not a single one came out. The people inside wrote some kind of automation, they used it, they did some kind of analytics, which they also consumed ... Some kind of complete surrealism. Such a niche that does not give a bank.
And here we come with this big picture (it was a huge slide), we showed it to the customers of our audit. He looked: "Well, well, well done, you have some balls here, arrows ... Let us state it all at the meeting of the management of the IT-division and tell everything."
IT management meeting. We are in three-piece suits, everything is as it should be. We show our big picture, a separate division as an island ... And at that moment, a stifled chuckle is heard from behind, turning into a squeezed hub.
Uncle, who called us, announces a time-out, pulls into the corridor. And he asks me a sacramental question for any consultant:
I understand that obviously I am doing something wrong. If your customer asks you such a question, it means that you are really a fool. I say:
I rummaged in my talmudas:
I understand that I did some kind of nonsense. Well, uncle is clever and gentle. He speaks:
They even paid us off and escorted us with the world.
Or there was another case. At the institute I learned how to calculate ROI (Return On Investment) from the introduction of automated testing. There are test automation tools, they cost a lot of money. And the company, when it buys them, wants to know whether it will pay off or not pay off. I had a simple and clear calculator that counted the time of test runs, the number of tests, the time to develop automated tests, the time to run manual tests. And with a certain number of test runs in automatic mode, all automation starts to pay off. Such a simple thing.
And one of the offices invited us exactly this and count it. We are said to have been at your training and we know that you can count it. We want, they say, to attract you for a complex project. They implemented automation and conducted an internal audit and implemented the processes. And our task was to calculate the ROI from the introduction of automated testing.
I counted for one project, for the second, for the third - it does not pay off. It makes no sense to buy such expensive tools at the current cost of specialists in the labor market. We even decided to allocate this to a new department that will provide service to other teams. Considered from this point of view - it still does not pay off. Too expensive thing, which is difficult to pay back, even for several years.
And here is the final report, everyone looks at him somehow sadly. And our customers take me aside and ask the same unpleasant question:
I got into a pose: “Guys, then you formulate the task correctly.” Because if I knew that the task was to confirm what I had already bought, I would simply not take up this project. The name is one, and I don’t want to throw it away much.
Then some money did not even pay us, and from that sunny city we flew away in mixed feelings.
But I have not so much consulting experience. But if you talk with other guys, then I think that the “Black book of the consultant” is typed there.
In short, then I began to realize that at that time consulting was not entirely mine. Then I did not learn how to sell naked consulting. Now, when clients ask for consulting after training, we sometimes very carefully render it. And then I realized that it was not entirely mine.
So, how did it turn out at Yandex?
We came to Yandex with ingenious, as it seemed to us, thoughts on how to build a testing process at Yandex. Somewhere about a year and a half before, I interviewed Yandex where I just wanted to do testing. And I understood approximately how it was arranged inside.
It seemed to me that everything must be done according to the mind. I was the consultant whose world is very polar: either, as I know, everything else is wrong.
And here we are with my colleague Rost (Rostislav) came to Yandex to tell how to do the testing. A terrific person talked to us, Denis. He listened wearily to us, explained why Yandex does testing the way he does it. Somewhere, maybe, not optimally and not correctly, but it does as Yandex needs right now. And after Denis explained and laid out everything, he, as a cultured and polite person, did not immediately put us out the door, but offered to take a tour of Yandex.
Fir-tree sticks, it's great - come from where the devils and see Yandex from the inside! For me, at that time, all these companies were in the same row: Google, Yandex, Amazon, Ozon ... These were sites that I used almost every day. And to see how it was arranged from the inside was very interesting!
And Denis gave us a simple tour. And already dressing on the threshold, I honestly asked: “Guys, why don't you have Yandex in Kiev?” At that time, Yandex-Ukraine already existed, there was an office in Odessa, where marketers were sitting, the guys who made the first advertising sales, raised this the market and did all this hellish work. But in Kiev there was no office.
And I received a terrific answer: “Because so far no one has proposed or explained to us why Yandex needs to have an office in Kiev.” With this deep thought, Rost and I left for Kiev.
The next two days we thought. Thought a lot. It’s very hard for me to think for two days :) I like to think up and quickly run to try. And then two days thought. Because on the one hand, the scales had their own, but their own consulting business. Small and proud birds, which on services, on consulting, got money quite understandable for life out of the market. On the other hand, it was Yandex, it was very cool and interesting.
In general, it was like, you know ... “There are doors. Do you want - knock, you will open. Do not knock - you will not open. " That is, it could not be called an offer. The offer was made much later.
But these were doors, we knocked on them, said: “Guys, we live here for so long, we feed ourselves. We understand what money is and how to earn it. We have passed a certain career path ... ”, etc. Probably, under this general understanding that making money, what are some processes, and of course, for a task, for people, Yandex decided to make a Kiev office. The task at that time was localization for the Ukrainian market - an interesting experiment.
In general, it turned out again that they were somewhere nearby and were not afraid ... No, this is not the right word - there’s nothing terrible when Yandex tells you that something can be opened here. But they decided to abandon some pirate flag and return to hiring.
I remember a few people on LinkedIn wrote: “Thank you, did you go back to hiring?” But let's understand, go back to hiring at Yandex - then it was a great opportunity for me.
Something like this. Initially, I was the director of the office. Then, after six months or a year, we looked at what I actually do. And it turned out that I was already engaged not so much in the administration of the office, as in some other tasks, and my position was called “Technology Director of Yandex-Ukraine”. We began to localize Yandex services for the Ukrainian market.
How did you find yourself in training in the company Luxoft Ukraine two years later?
Everything was very simple. Two years later, the experiment ended ... (laughs)
In fact, Yandex is an absolutely amazing company, it can count. She knows how to count advertising and costs. Despite the entire (perhaps outwardly broadcast) image of a startup, there are smart, intelligent people inside, who can count everything.
And at some point in time, it was considered that the cost of developing and maintaining the disgrace that we have done does not pay back the attendance of those services that we have created. That is, at some point, we have become the company is not needed.
There were guys who were made offers, because they were very technologically competent people. They stayed in the company. Someone even left, and then returned to the company. Someone moved to another office.
But since the development was curtailed, I, as the head of this whole tank, was also curtailed.
That is, it was not my decisive step from a high-tech company to a completely different industry. It was just that the experiment that was set ended, and I had to choose something else.
On my first day off, I went to Moscow for the Agile Labs conference hosted by Luxoft. There I talked to the director of the Luxoft training center Viktor Tatyanin. I approached him, and said that I probably want to study.
Victor said: “Wait,” he picked up the phone, made a couple of calls and made me an offer.
If we talk about the factor of luck, then I was damn lucky with the leaders. And it was another fact of luck. I just went at the right time to the right person and in a conversation with him I expressed a thought that tormented me at that moment.
At that time I was already engaged in training, coaching people. I was a part-time coach. Some applications came, I went to work them out, but I wanted to do this on a large scale.
Then in Ukraine, Luxoft employed about 1,500 people. My task was to feed the training center - to earn in the free market. At this point, Luxoft is an absolutely awesome money making machine. The internal division needed to feed itself, including by realizing requests for training from within the company.
In general, it seems to me that this is a very sensible position in relation to not only the training center, but to any division that can be replaced by the services of an outsourcer.
In general, I came to work for such a position. It was a very bold and reckless step, because it was 2009, just after the crisis. And then I came to sell training - exactly at the moment when all companies cut two items of expenses: marketing and training.
But the team and the company were cool, people understood everything, they helped someone with what they could: the speakers were found inside the company, and the resources were found. We started to do conferences, attracted attention. So it all started spinning, and I stayed at the training center, although the initial conditions were very complicated: here's a plan for you, you fulfill it - you work for a company, you don't fulfill it - you don't work. It turned out somehow to raise it all.
It was ... how to say ... a step that had to be done a long time ago - to go and do what you like to do. The same Victor Tatianin, having worked with me for six months, once said: “Glory - he was born to be a trainer (born to be a coach)”. I like to swing my arms, stand near a flip chart, prove something to someone.
But on the other hand, I realized that this needs to be done professionally: it doesn’t fit well with the main job. You or dad or mom (laughs). Or a manager, or a coach. At least, I have so decomposed in my head at that time.
For a while I combined these two positions - a trainer and a training director, engaging in sales training, among other things. But then I realized that this is not what I want. I want to do only training. And then Stratoplan happened with you :)
Listen, do you have any of your features in the hero of the Black Book of the Manager? In this book, did you, as a director, give advice to yourself some time ago?
It would be good to say now: no, well, you, I am solely from an observer's position ..., from the side, so to speak ... No, of course! :) Naturally, there were such features. Probably, the book turned out to be so angry that I recognized myself somewhere.
When you grow up from an engineer to a manager in three years, then to a resource manager, and then you continue your rapid career - naturally, you think that you are the smartest, your nose is lifted up to heaven ...
Like many people, I am infuriated in others by what I notice for myself. And I remembered myself and thought: “Here is a pancake ... Then such an outspoken leader would fall, who not only patiently informed me ... but would have conveyed it in a simple way — I would have been smarter then.”
Let's return to the problem with the generation Y. What should managers do? How to work with this generation?
Recruit on the mind. If you don’t set yourself the task of recruiting 1000 people ... The guys from the outsourcing will curse me, because they just have such a task, they have such a business model. And we saw several examples of such growth, when the company was created with state money and over the year caught up with 1,000 people in streaming employment.
But if you do not set yourself the task to recruit 1000 people, then you can select the people you need. There are a lot of techniques, how to properly conduct interviews (the same projective techniques), competent trial period, reviews of previous jobs - you can consult any competent HR specialist. It is necessary to select others, simply. For our age sensible people enough.
For some reason, they think that if a person is packed in skills, then he should be taken. It's not like that at all. Need to take more for the attitude to work. I recently attended a seminar by Jonas Ridderstrall (author of the book “Funky Business”). He was there just denounced this thought: “Hire for attitude. Train for skills. ”
Comrade Jonas just gave this example. Imagine that you are a biker party. And you are recruiting people. Can you drive a motorcycle? Everything, we accept you! No, this tribe is charged for other things. You need to hire for attitude to work. And further, if something is missing, then we will think up together how to get out, or send you for training.
And we have a person leaving the institute, he even has something written on his diploma, plus he spent two trainings in the first job, that's all, take out and give me my managerial position! Now, if we hire so, we will have what we have. For the attitude you need to hire, I think.
Listen, why, in your opinion, PCM has become so popular? It was downloaded by about 15,000 people, many were sent inside their companies. Why? Is it a mate or something else?
Math in the book, I think, does not bear any particular therapeutic role. Packing, rather. It seems to me that ChKM came to people, because in the book it is written in plain text that we are ashamed to say in life.
Just ChKM, became the first cry from the crowd “And the king is naked!”.
The manager was often carried in his arms, slowly realizing that his plump body was often just ballast for the project and the team. If the team turned out to be stronger - the project flew, if the team did not pull out somewhere, the manager’s failure became obvious. The book, as it seems to me, for many, has become a straw that has ridge and broke this thick camel.
The manager has ceased for many to be an Icon or even an Icon.
Intelligent managers who are doing their job are not affected. Good teams only smiled, once again mentally putting their manager in karma. Well, sleepy snails from the management got it. Well and wonderful, I think.
What are, in your opinion, the three main problems of domestic managers? Where do they come from? Why not treated?
Laziness, gluttony and cowardice.
Laziness: simple human laziness that crawls so easily into your bosom when there is someone who feeds you. Manager units are ready and play one game with Business. Units On real projects, for real money. The rest pay a salary until they are fired. As long as they pay for his presence at work - the manager will be lazy. Self-motivated whole head dude at all times was not enough.
Gluttony: zazhralis. More precisely fed. The growth of salaries of programmers in some strange way warmed up the market nafig useless managers. Programmers were needed - they didn’t think about tomorrow at all, and managers began to receive as owners of small firms. Sfigali, I ask? Sfigali a person who does not have a unique technological or domain expertise, as the same programmer or analyst, suddenly began to receive comparable money? No managers in the market? Nonsense - in bulk. Explanatory not? This is true - so they pay all the sensible and sit-down pants.
And if you are fed for nothing, then the mouth does not close. Gluttony.
Cowardice: on a fig to take responsibility for yourself, the project and people, if you feed like that? We do not dismiss managers for incompetence. At the interview I told you how you WILL do projects, work with the customer and manage people - the manager. And the fact that, by the fact of the fact, you don’t know how to do a damn thing - there is a surrounding reality that can literally explain everything.
The reason is the same: we feed too well. The manager should not have a big salary. Minimum required + bonus by project results. Earn! = Receive. You need to earn. Business is earning. Owners - earn. The manager must earn. Not able or not ready - what for from the market. Sit in Uryupinsk and drank sleepers silently.
Well, wait a minute, not always the work of a manager can be directly tied to business results. Often, much depends on marketing, on the market, etc.
I admit that there are probably positions that are hard to tie to business results. I even had the idea that if there is such a position in the company, then why is there a managerial person on it? There may be many such technical posts. Even if we leave aside the engineers - the cleaner here walks, cleans. Without it, it will be dirty, and this is bad, but it affects the business results strongly indirectly.
But it seems to me that it is not just possible, but necessary, to link management positions to business results. Even if it is a resource manager. There is a percentage of turnover, the percentage of people who leave him for a certain time.
He, of course, can justify this by saying that “we have this position where people pay much less than the market,” but you can always ask: “So you are a manager, what have you done to make it different? Did you go to the head? Did you knock something out? Did you knock something at your customer? Did you go to marketing? What have you been doing all this time? You have been sitting for two years, waiting for your leading specialist to leave you. You have at this moment jumping percentage of turnover. And at this moment you come and say: well, somehow we are paying something for something ... ”
I do not believe that the managerial position cannot be assessed with money. Even if he manages people, these people should work well, at a given speed, not create a headache for the neighboring units - at least it can be calculated. Let it sound beaten, but you can hang a KPI for any work of a manager. Then the question arises, how not to make it nonsense, so that a person does not start working purely on metrics. This is a separate complex task, I do not argue. But there are not so many managers.
We are accustomed to row all under one comb and call managers. Let's understand, a timlid is a timlid, a technide is a technid. And if this is a project manager, then this project is needed by someone. Someone ordered this project, someone sponsors, there is a list of decision-makers. Otherwise, what is this project? Who is he in FIG?
For the project, someone always pays. And if no one pays for the project, the question arises: what are you doing as a manager in this project? If nobody pays for the project, you as a manager in this project can only do one thing: close this project. Then your metric will be the number of closed projects per year, and we are talking about a completely different manager.
Probably, here I have a one-sided position that everything needs to be measured. A person either does what is needed of him or does not. If it is difficult to measure directly in money - bind to the money of the entire office. For example: the contribution of this person is 0.1% of the profits of the entire office. Profit grows - okay. Not growing - all the best.
I see no options when we can take an unmotivated manager and re-educate him inside. Miracles do not happen. Accordingly, one must either take hyper-motivated people (they are, but their units), or help everyone else — help those who cannot be hyper-motivated all the time. Do not drag the carrot “here is your bonus”, but show: “here is your influence on business”. If there is no influence, then such a position is not needed.
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And then the reason came just in time - three years from the release of the Black Book of the Manager (18+, registration is required), probably the most popular and scandalous book on management. Exactly three years ago, Glory wrote it.
About the ideas embodied in this book, about what has changed in the industry for 3 years, how Kiev Yandex was opened, and why consultants are sometimes called fools by customers.
')
3 years have passed since the publication of the PMC. Has something changed in the industry since then?
Oh yeah! A lot, a lot has changed. Salaries have become more, people have become more self-confident, rare deviations have become the norm :)
In fact, everything just got worse, in my humble opinion. In place of rare individuals who were looking for warm, quiet backwaters, where you can sit on the priest and not shine, a generation has appeared that doesn't want to do a damn thing. That is, quite. Not that can not or can not. Does not want. From the first days at work, a person somehow otmazyvatsya from the performance of their duties.
At first I thought that it was me, as a trainer, who stumbled on such people, either directly or through working situations with groups. Nothing. I read blogs, facebooks and twitter managers with great experience and I see how the same thing breaks out here and there: Yes, why not? 11 :)
The work of the manager becomes more difficult. On the one hand, it is necessary to work with an increasingly lazy, for the most part, composition of people. There were never any tough dudes on the market, and now even more so. And if you have a new project and are actively hiring from the market, then you don’t have to expect anything special, no matter how the recruiters try ... Managers either work with it or give up. Surrendered - OK, a small project and a file: they drank. Do not give up - it means intelligent, then let's hang on him 15-20 people - let him drag. Manager matyukatsya, realizes that he himself evil Pinocchio, but pulls. Previously, this was less.
Clever has become harder, stupid to be or pretend to be more profitable.
Such a picture.
I recently spoke with the dean of my ITMO faculty, Vladimir Glebovich Parfenov, who for many years has already become world programming champions. He also complains that he does not recruit people to their pulpits. This is not a rumble at all, that in our time the grass was greener, people were smarter, did we go to competitions and so on? What has changed?
I do not have much statistics. Any statistician will say: This is a private opinion. Yes, this is my personal opinion. In my opinion, it became worse.
I don’t know whether this generation Z has grown up, whether generation Y or the NJ generation, about which only lazy people don’t write right now ... I don’t know. I think just overfed. Now people do not want to work.
I have a friend - one of the coolest, from my point of view, consultants in the field of project management. He is attracted at the stage of project management formation. That is, let's say you are building a plant, a complex system. And a person understands how plants are built, and how projects are done. Industry expert. The patient man.
Recently, even in his Facebook he wrote:
Well, what a fig! I communicate with the person about the task, which is included in his direct functional duties, and he absolutely directly tells me: I will not do this. I: as so? It will not, says. I go to his boss. I say, maybe what I do not understand. He says to me, yes. He won't, let's invent something, decide something ...
There is no statistics. If you look one-sidedly at our conversation with you, or at the Black Book of the Manager, you may get the impression that everything is bad. No, of course, not everything is bad. But people who do not want to work, it became much more.
I suspect that they will become more and more. Here and the decline in the birth rate of the 90s makes itself felt, and the fact that thanks to the Unified State Exam in Russia and the ZNO in Ukraine, those who had previously simply never got there began to enter the institutions.
Earlier, a troechnik at school could not get into college. And now everyone is lined up in height. And if in front of are not honors, and horoshisty, then troechniki quite a pass. One hundred people lined up, the first fifty took. If the first in the column is a dunce, then we also take all the restlunters.
These people are now graduating from institutions. Someone will work tomorrow, and someone has already found a job. We are already dealing with this generation.
Let me not be offended by those who come to work to really do business. Respect to you and uvazhuha :) But the generation has changed. In my opinion, it became worse.
People who played with the business in one game and tore the ass for the sake of business results, it was always a little. But now it becomes even somehow unfashionable. This trend is killing at all. Sitting at work and getting paid becomes a matter of course. And this is not the case; for salary, you must still do something.
Let's go to the birthday of the book. What prompted you to write the “Black Book of the Manager,” and in general - tell us a little about yourself.
It’s nice to talk about myself, I can talk for a long time, but I will try with the thought not to spread along the tree. (Those who know me personally will laugh here, but I’ll really try to keep it short.)
I really had a career, because at that moment the market was pretty cool. I myself am from Kiev, here the market grew very strongly in 2000-2004. Large IT companies came to the market, which have many branches — basically, it was a large outsourcing. Many people, including myself, grew up in a career because they got a powerful starting kick.
There were few managers, companies were ready to help, pull, pull out, teach - that's exactly why my career quickly went. On the 4th course of the institute I was the head of the testing department. Not because he was the smartest, but because no one wanted to go into software testing, and no one wanted to go to the executives. Everyone wanted to do programming.
And when you have at least one "first part of the department" tag, you want to continue doing this. I became a senior tester who hired all other testers. Now it is called “resource manager”. The position was somehow connected with the management of people: hiring, dismissal, development, training. So I, just, tried training.
In three words, it just happened - it was at the right time in the right place. And somewhere at the same moment, I began to understand that not all managers, like yogurts, are equally useful. And I experienced different managers the hard way - I wanted to work with some, I didn’t want to work with others at all. Periodically he came home and said to his wife: “Well, now they will either be fired, or they will give a bonus”.
I cursed with many, with someone very loud. There were cases when some of our common acquaintances with you in the position then HR directors jumped out into the corridor:
- Glory, what happened?
- Nothing, I explain here to my manager where he is right, where he is wrong. And he explains to me where he is right and I am wrong.
That is, there was a raging personal experience, there were different managers around. And I, of course, at first was not the best manager. And at some point it all came together, and a strong difference was felt: how it was then and how it became now. Then, as you know, the sky was high and the trees were large and the grass was greener. During those 7 years, while I was an engineer, I grew up with the director of technology, everything changed very cool. I can’t say that from the profession of tough (not always pleasant, but tough) people, it turned out to be a refuge for the poor in spirit ... But a lot of obviously not the best people reached into the manager’s profession. Some kind of nagging and arrogance started ...
I remember very well the case when we were standing in the smoking room (I was still smoking) ... And a guy stood next to his team who told us that they were celebrating some regular release yesterday, and in the morning an extremely dissatisfied cleaning lady came up with claims that we were in the kitchen left such srach:
- And I answer her that I am a manager. I will not get out.
I was so resented then. And here - the manager, not the manager? Shat - get up, take it with you.
At some point I realized that there were a lot of such managers. which you can’t make you wash a mug or write a superfluous letter. And it somehow resonated, we just then already worked with you. And from the set of notes was born such a book. She turned out to be angry, simply because such a mood then existed, and I was extremely dissatisfied with the people who behaved like that. Probably even discrediting the very profession of a manager.
For myself, I briefly turned out to be something :) And where about how you turned out to be director of technology at Yandex Ukraine?
Yes, everything was very simple. At a certain point in time, I rested against the glass ceiling. I decided that I was such a cool technologist. At that time I was tightly connected with testing: I implemented testing and implemented processes, then I discouraged people from introducing tools, then I learned how to calculate all this in the form of numbers.
At some point, together with another person who strongly catalyzed me, we opened the company QA Expert. And they went to engage in consulting.
We existed on free bread for a year. It was very interesting, we discovered a wonderful world of consulting. There were some cool stories ...
Well, well ...
Well, for example, we come to a large bank. We were called to re-outsourcing. That is, the main guys realized that everything was somehow not very simple, and they hired us, the office is young and cheaper. In general, we understood that this work is better done not with our own hands, but with the hands of these young and hot men.
The task was very simple. The management of the bank's IT department changed, they realized that the state was overblown and it was necessary to restore order. I don’t want to rake the heat with my own hands - we hired consultants. Those hired another consultants - that was us. It was necessary to figure out who does what in the unit. A sort of an independent audit. And according to the results some other consulting is possible.
Process auditing is a simple thing. You come and ask each person what he does: in which projects you work, who sets tasks for you, how your working day is built, how it starts, where you enter your work, where your tasks come from, who you report to, etc. And then from the little men you build schemes and arrows to understand the place of each person in this large structure.
And we found a very funny person at 40, who did something like that, but ... in short, the entire IT system of the bank was not very useful. And not a single task of the bank was included in this division, and not a single one came out. The people inside wrote some kind of automation, they used it, they did some kind of analytics, which they also consumed ... Some kind of complete surrealism. Such a niche that does not give a bank.
And here we come with this big picture (it was a huge slide), we showed it to the customers of our audit. He looked: "Well, well, well done, you have some balls here, arrows ... Let us state it all at the meeting of the management of the IT-division and tell everything."
IT management meeting. We are in three-piece suits, everything is as it should be. We show our big picture, a separate division as an island ... And at that moment, a stifled chuckle is heard from behind, turning into a squeezed hub.
Uncle, who called us, announces a time-out, pulls into the corridor. And he asks me a sacramental question for any consultant:
- What are you, fool?
I understand that obviously I am doing something wrong. If your customer asks you such a question, it means that you are really a fool. I say:
- Probably, yes, just asking ... And what's wrong?
- Do you understand what kind of unit?
- Understand. A division that does nothing for a bank.
- It goes without saying ... Do you know who leads them?
I rummaged in my talmudas:
- Ivanov Ivan Ivanovich.
- It's clear. Do you know whose is his nephew? This is the nephew of the one whose name we don’t remember. He sits a few years, he was given a division, and let him sit, and to hell with him. If only other people did not interfere with work.
I understand that I did some kind of nonsense. Well, uncle is clever and gentle. He speaks:
- You, of course, would be forced to paint the arrows, but still, everyone has already seen and neighing. In general, at this place we end our cooperation.
They even paid us off and escorted us with the world.
Or there was another case. At the institute I learned how to calculate ROI (Return On Investment) from the introduction of automated testing. There are test automation tools, they cost a lot of money. And the company, when it buys them, wants to know whether it will pay off or not pay off. I had a simple and clear calculator that counted the time of test runs, the number of tests, the time to develop automated tests, the time to run manual tests. And with a certain number of test runs in automatic mode, all automation starts to pay off. Such a simple thing.
And one of the offices invited us exactly this and count it. We are said to have been at your training and we know that you can count it. We want, they say, to attract you for a complex project. They implemented automation and conducted an internal audit and implemented the processes. And our task was to calculate the ROI from the introduction of automated testing.
I counted for one project, for the second, for the third - it does not pay off. It makes no sense to buy such expensive tools at the current cost of specialists in the labor market. We even decided to allocate this to a new department that will provide service to other teams. Considered from this point of view - it still does not pay off. Too expensive thing, which is difficult to pay back, even for several years.
And here is the final report, everyone looks at him somehow sadly. And our customers take me aside and ask the same unpleasant question:
- Are you a fool? We have already bought this thing. You should have said how much it will pay off.
I got into a pose: “Guys, then you formulate the task correctly.” Because if I knew that the task was to confirm what I had already bought, I would simply not take up this project. The name is one, and I don’t want to throw it away much.
Then some money did not even pay us, and from that sunny city we flew away in mixed feelings.
But I have not so much consulting experience. But if you talk with other guys, then I think that the “Black book of the consultant” is typed there.
In short, then I began to realize that at that time consulting was not entirely mine. Then I did not learn how to sell naked consulting. Now, when clients ask for consulting after training, we sometimes very carefully render it. And then I realized that it was not entirely mine.
So, how did it turn out at Yandex?
We came to Yandex with ingenious, as it seemed to us, thoughts on how to build a testing process at Yandex. Somewhere about a year and a half before, I interviewed Yandex where I just wanted to do testing. And I understood approximately how it was arranged inside.
It seemed to me that everything must be done according to the mind. I was the consultant whose world is very polar: either, as I know, everything else is wrong.
And here we are with my colleague Rost (Rostislav) came to Yandex to tell how to do the testing. A terrific person talked to us, Denis. He listened wearily to us, explained why Yandex does testing the way he does it. Somewhere, maybe, not optimally and not correctly, but it does as Yandex needs right now. And after Denis explained and laid out everything, he, as a cultured and polite person, did not immediately put us out the door, but offered to take a tour of Yandex.
Fir-tree sticks, it's great - come from where the devils and see Yandex from the inside! For me, at that time, all these companies were in the same row: Google, Yandex, Amazon, Ozon ... These were sites that I used almost every day. And to see how it was arranged from the inside was very interesting!
And Denis gave us a simple tour. And already dressing on the threshold, I honestly asked: “Guys, why don't you have Yandex in Kiev?” At that time, Yandex-Ukraine already existed, there was an office in Odessa, where marketers were sitting, the guys who made the first advertising sales, raised this the market and did all this hellish work. But in Kiev there was no office.
And I received a terrific answer: “Because so far no one has proposed or explained to us why Yandex needs to have an office in Kiev.” With this deep thought, Rost and I left for Kiev.
The next two days we thought. Thought a lot. It’s very hard for me to think for two days :) I like to think up and quickly run to try. And then two days thought. Because on the one hand, the scales had their own, but their own consulting business. Small and proud birds, which on services, on consulting, got money quite understandable for life out of the market. On the other hand, it was Yandex, it was very cool and interesting.
In general, it was like, you know ... “There are doors. Do you want - knock, you will open. Do not knock - you will not open. " That is, it could not be called an offer. The offer was made much later.
But these were doors, we knocked on them, said: “Guys, we live here for so long, we feed ourselves. We understand what money is and how to earn it. We have passed a certain career path ... ”, etc. Probably, under this general understanding that making money, what are some processes, and of course, for a task, for people, Yandex decided to make a Kiev office. The task at that time was localization for the Ukrainian market - an interesting experiment.
In general, it turned out again that they were somewhere nearby and were not afraid ... No, this is not the right word - there’s nothing terrible when Yandex tells you that something can be opened here. But they decided to abandon some pirate flag and return to hiring.
I remember a few people on LinkedIn wrote: “Thank you, did you go back to hiring?” But let's understand, go back to hiring at Yandex - then it was a great opportunity for me.
Something like this. Initially, I was the director of the office. Then, after six months or a year, we looked at what I actually do. And it turned out that I was already engaged not so much in the administration of the office, as in some other tasks, and my position was called “Technology Director of Yandex-Ukraine”. We began to localize Yandex services for the Ukrainian market.
How did you find yourself in training in the company Luxoft Ukraine two years later?
Everything was very simple. Two years later, the experiment ended ... (laughs)
In fact, Yandex is an absolutely amazing company, it can count. She knows how to count advertising and costs. Despite the entire (perhaps outwardly broadcast) image of a startup, there are smart, intelligent people inside, who can count everything.
And at some point in time, it was considered that the cost of developing and maintaining the disgrace that we have done does not pay back the attendance of those services that we have created. That is, at some point, we have become the company is not needed.
There were guys who were made offers, because they were very technologically competent people. They stayed in the company. Someone even left, and then returned to the company. Someone moved to another office.
But since the development was curtailed, I, as the head of this whole tank, was also curtailed.
That is, it was not my decisive step from a high-tech company to a completely different industry. It was just that the experiment that was set ended, and I had to choose something else.
On my first day off, I went to Moscow for the Agile Labs conference hosted by Luxoft. There I talked to the director of the Luxoft training center Viktor Tatyanin. I approached him, and said that I probably want to study.
Victor said: “Wait,” he picked up the phone, made a couple of calls and made me an offer.
If we talk about the factor of luck, then I was damn lucky with the leaders. And it was another fact of luck. I just went at the right time to the right person and in a conversation with him I expressed a thought that tormented me at that moment.
At that time I was already engaged in training, coaching people. I was a part-time coach. Some applications came, I went to work them out, but I wanted to do this on a large scale.
Then in Ukraine, Luxoft employed about 1,500 people. My task was to feed the training center - to earn in the free market. At this point, Luxoft is an absolutely awesome money making machine. The internal division needed to feed itself, including by realizing requests for training from within the company.
In general, it seems to me that this is a very sensible position in relation to not only the training center, but to any division that can be replaced by the services of an outsourcer.
In general, I came to work for such a position. It was a very bold and reckless step, because it was 2009, just after the crisis. And then I came to sell training - exactly at the moment when all companies cut two items of expenses: marketing and training.
But the team and the company were cool, people understood everything, they helped someone with what they could: the speakers were found inside the company, and the resources were found. We started to do conferences, attracted attention. So it all started spinning, and I stayed at the training center, although the initial conditions were very complicated: here's a plan for you, you fulfill it - you work for a company, you don't fulfill it - you don't work. It turned out somehow to raise it all.
It was ... how to say ... a step that had to be done a long time ago - to go and do what you like to do. The same Victor Tatianin, having worked with me for six months, once said: “Glory - he was born to be a trainer (born to be a coach)”. I like to swing my arms, stand near a flip chart, prove something to someone.
But on the other hand, I realized that this needs to be done professionally: it doesn’t fit well with the main job. You or dad or mom (laughs). Or a manager, or a coach. At least, I have so decomposed in my head at that time.
For a while I combined these two positions - a trainer and a training director, engaging in sales training, among other things. But then I realized that this is not what I want. I want to do only training. And then Stratoplan happened with you :)
Listen, do you have any of your features in the hero of the Black Book of the Manager? In this book, did you, as a director, give advice to yourself some time ago?
It would be good to say now: no, well, you, I am solely from an observer's position ..., from the side, so to speak ... No, of course! :) Naturally, there were such features. Probably, the book turned out to be so angry that I recognized myself somewhere.
When you grow up from an engineer to a manager in three years, then to a resource manager, and then you continue your rapid career - naturally, you think that you are the smartest, your nose is lifted up to heaven ...
Like many people, I am infuriated in others by what I notice for myself. And I remembered myself and thought: “Here is a pancake ... Then such an outspoken leader would fall, who not only patiently informed me ... but would have conveyed it in a simple way — I would have been smarter then.”
Let's return to the problem with the generation Y. What should managers do? How to work with this generation?
Recruit on the mind. If you don’t set yourself the task of recruiting 1000 people ... The guys from the outsourcing will curse me, because they just have such a task, they have such a business model. And we saw several examples of such growth, when the company was created with state money and over the year caught up with 1,000 people in streaming employment.
But if you do not set yourself the task to recruit 1000 people, then you can select the people you need. There are a lot of techniques, how to properly conduct interviews (the same projective techniques), competent trial period, reviews of previous jobs - you can consult any competent HR specialist. It is necessary to select others, simply. For our age sensible people enough.
For some reason, they think that if a person is packed in skills, then he should be taken. It's not like that at all. Need to take more for the attitude to work. I recently attended a seminar by Jonas Ridderstrall (author of the book “Funky Business”). He was there just denounced this thought: “Hire for attitude. Train for skills. ”
Comrade Jonas just gave this example. Imagine that you are a biker party. And you are recruiting people. Can you drive a motorcycle? Everything, we accept you! No, this tribe is charged for other things. You need to hire for attitude to work. And further, if something is missing, then we will think up together how to get out, or send you for training.
And we have a person leaving the institute, he even has something written on his diploma, plus he spent two trainings in the first job, that's all, take out and give me my managerial position! Now, if we hire so, we will have what we have. For the attitude you need to hire, I think.
Listen, why, in your opinion, PCM has become so popular? It was downloaded by about 15,000 people, many were sent inside their companies. Why? Is it a mate or something else?
Math in the book, I think, does not bear any particular therapeutic role. Packing, rather. It seems to me that ChKM came to people, because in the book it is written in plain text that we are ashamed to say in life.
Just ChKM, became the first cry from the crowd “And the king is naked!”.
The manager was often carried in his arms, slowly realizing that his plump body was often just ballast for the project and the team. If the team turned out to be stronger - the project flew, if the team did not pull out somewhere, the manager’s failure became obvious. The book, as it seems to me, for many, has become a straw that has ridge and broke this thick camel.
The manager has ceased for many to be an Icon or even an Icon.
Intelligent managers who are doing their job are not affected. Good teams only smiled, once again mentally putting their manager in karma. Well, sleepy snails from the management got it. Well and wonderful, I think.
What are, in your opinion, the three main problems of domestic managers? Where do they come from? Why not treated?
Laziness, gluttony and cowardice.
Laziness: simple human laziness that crawls so easily into your bosom when there is someone who feeds you. Manager units are ready and play one game with Business. Units On real projects, for real money. The rest pay a salary until they are fired. As long as they pay for his presence at work - the manager will be lazy. Self-motivated whole head dude at all times was not enough.
Gluttony: zazhralis. More precisely fed. The growth of salaries of programmers in some strange way warmed up the market nafig useless managers. Programmers were needed - they didn’t think about tomorrow at all, and managers began to receive as owners of small firms. Sfigali, I ask? Sfigali a person who does not have a unique technological or domain expertise, as the same programmer or analyst, suddenly began to receive comparable money? No managers in the market? Nonsense - in bulk. Explanatory not? This is true - so they pay all the sensible and sit-down pants.
And if you are fed for nothing, then the mouth does not close. Gluttony.
Cowardice: on a fig to take responsibility for yourself, the project and people, if you feed like that? We do not dismiss managers for incompetence. At the interview I told you how you WILL do projects, work with the customer and manage people - the manager. And the fact that, by the fact of the fact, you don’t know how to do a damn thing - there is a surrounding reality that can literally explain everything.
The reason is the same: we feed too well. The manager should not have a big salary. Minimum required + bonus by project results. Earn! = Receive. You need to earn. Business is earning. Owners - earn. The manager must earn. Not able or not ready - what for from the market. Sit in Uryupinsk and drank sleepers silently.
Well, wait a minute, not always the work of a manager can be directly tied to business results. Often, much depends on marketing, on the market, etc.
I admit that there are probably positions that are hard to tie to business results. I even had the idea that if there is such a position in the company, then why is there a managerial person on it? There may be many such technical posts. Even if we leave aside the engineers - the cleaner here walks, cleans. Without it, it will be dirty, and this is bad, but it affects the business results strongly indirectly.
But it seems to me that it is not just possible, but necessary, to link management positions to business results. Even if it is a resource manager. There is a percentage of turnover, the percentage of people who leave him for a certain time.
He, of course, can justify this by saying that “we have this position where people pay much less than the market,” but you can always ask: “So you are a manager, what have you done to make it different? Did you go to the head? Did you knock something out? Did you knock something at your customer? Did you go to marketing? What have you been doing all this time? You have been sitting for two years, waiting for your leading specialist to leave you. You have at this moment jumping percentage of turnover. And at this moment you come and say: well, somehow we are paying something for something ... ”
I do not believe that the managerial position cannot be assessed with money. Even if he manages people, these people should work well, at a given speed, not create a headache for the neighboring units - at least it can be calculated. Let it sound beaten, but you can hang a KPI for any work of a manager. Then the question arises, how not to make it nonsense, so that a person does not start working purely on metrics. This is a separate complex task, I do not argue. But there are not so many managers.
We are accustomed to row all under one comb and call managers. Let's understand, a timlid is a timlid, a technide is a technid. And if this is a project manager, then this project is needed by someone. Someone ordered this project, someone sponsors, there is a list of decision-makers. Otherwise, what is this project? Who is he in FIG?
For the project, someone always pays. And if no one pays for the project, the question arises: what are you doing as a manager in this project? If nobody pays for the project, you as a manager in this project can only do one thing: close this project. Then your metric will be the number of closed projects per year, and we are talking about a completely different manager.
Probably, here I have a one-sided position that everything needs to be measured. A person either does what is needed of him or does not. If it is difficult to measure directly in money - bind to the money of the entire office. For example: the contribution of this person is 0.1% of the profits of the entire office. Profit grows - okay. Not growing - all the best.
I see no options when we can take an unmotivated manager and re-educate him inside. Miracles do not happen. Accordingly, one must either take hyper-motivated people (they are, but their units), or help everyone else — help those who cannot be hyper-motivated all the time. Do not drag the carrot “here is your bonus”, but show: “here is your influence on business”. If there is no influence, then such a position is not needed.
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Source: https://habr.com/ru/post/211318/
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