Interview with Google employee Dibbon about open and free software
Chris DiBona is the head of Google’s open source software business. The derStandart publication was able to interview Chris, in which he shared information about the role Linux plays in Google's business, how important open source software is for the search giant, and what the corporation is doing to develop Open Source.
derStandard.at: Could you give a brief overview of how Google is related to open source software?
Chris DiBona: Most people familiar with Google, of course, would call Android and Chrome, but Google’s Open Source is much more. We have released about 1,300 open source projects in the past five years. If you use the currently popular measure, it is about 24-25 million lines of code released under various open licenses. So I have reason to assume that your computer has code written by our developers.
')
derStandard.at: Can it be argued that the release of open source software has become the standard for Google? Are you trying to encourage and convince developers to release their code as Opn Source?
Chris DiBona: The task of our department is even more likely not in this. The developer at the time of writing the code already knows about how he wants to dispose of this code, so he comes to the guys from our department with the words, they say, I want to make this project open-source. Our business is to give him recommendations and advice on how to get around the pitfalls that are in this matter.
derStandard.at: Could you specify this moment?
Chris DiBona: Say, for example, you are a developer, saw a flaw in the project and wanted to send a patch. To do this, you need to send him to our department, we will check it and confirm if it is in the case. If there are a lot of such efficient fixes, then get full access to make corrections without our knowledge.
If you want to start a new project under the wing of our company, then a preliminary analysis of patents and trademarks takes about three days after which we confirm the project, or explain what obstacles there may be. Usually we finish all the paperwork and other dull bureaucracies before the developer has finished writing the code, and the project is ready for release.
For large projects like Android and Chrome, it takes, of course, much more time. For example, we worked with the Android development department for about three years before G1 came out, helping developers deal with licensing, choosing the direction of development and strategy.
derStandard.at: What do you say about small projects, what license do they use?
Chris DiBona: For us, the Apache license has become the unwritten standard, but if a developer insists on being released under a different license, then we are discussing this issue, as well as not forgetting the direction of the project. If the development is aimed at something, say, in the Firefox browser, then we stop at another license, because the Apache license is not compatible with the licensing policy of Mozilla Firefox. Then, of course, a different license is chosen.
derStandard.at: Why do you prefer the Apache license?
Chris DiBona: We really like her. It contains provisions that make it more suitable for contemporary realities, taking into account some aspects of the patent system. Naturally, you get the right to freely use and modify the code, like most open licenses. By the way, all our patents, which are used in these free products, are also transferred to you and users for free use. True, the right to patents will be lost if your company starts to sue us. If this is not in your plans, then Google will not fix any other limitations and obstacles.
derStandard.at: In earlier interviews you mentioned that the MySQL project is one of the most important projects used by Google. Is it so?
Chris DiBona: Then it was true, but now it’s probably not already ...
derStandard.at: This is all because the relationship with Oracle, uh, somewhat cooled, to say the least?
Chris DiBona: [Smiles] It's a bit more complicated. Most likely the fact is that the applicability and significance of the MySQL project has somewhat decreased, and I can say that this concerns not only Google.
derStandard.at: So what came in return?
Chris DiBona: in fact, MySQL is still used as an integral part of our advertising system. In all other places she was forced out. Why? You see, Google has to work simply with huge amounts of data, and all existing implementations of database management systems, including open and free, are not able to scale adequately. Therefore, we had to write ours from scratch. So were born BigTable and Megastore .
derStandard.at: Apart from what you are developing yourself, what open projects are most important for your company?
Chris DiBona: First of all, this is GCC. Also, of course, this is the Linux kernel, all compilers, languages like Java, C ++ and Python. The OpenSSL project, as well as FFmpeg, has received tremendous importance for us, so we strive to help them with all the available forces and resources.
derStandard.at: Where do you use Linux inside Google?
Chris DiBona: Yes, everywhere. Each production machine and server runs on Linux-based systems, well, Android on mobile, of course, a lot of desktop systems for everyday routine use.
derStandard.at: What percentage of desktops work under Linux?
Chris DiBona: This is a good question. We have Linux, some Windows machines and a decent amount of Macs. If the percentage of laptops, then 70% work under Mac OS X, and the rest are mainly running Linux-based systems, so we are a big consumer of Apple. The overwhelming number of development-oriented desktops are managed by Linux. To do this, we have a special fork called ubuntu called Goobuntu, you will surely hear about it. It is integrated into our networks and has some utilities that are useful to developers.
Now we are trying to find an application for ChromeOS, but everything here is still dim. I have one machine under this system, but it only makes me happy until I have to sit down for programming. Our engineers are working to solve this problem, but so far the results do not allow ChromeOS to be called an adequate replacement for existing systems for developers.
derStandard.at: How do you follow the foundation of the Ubuntu development branch?
Chris DiBona: Follow, but without excessive fanaticism. You know that stability and reliability are very important for any organization, so even if you chase the mainstream with all your might, you will not catch up with it anyway. There is also a certain dependence on the owner of the car, so it’s hard for me now to say everything in the smallest details.
derStandard.at: Ubuntu recently changed the interface from GNOME to Unity. What do you say, will introduce?
Chris DiBona: Not in this state. Our googles need Eclipse, VIM, Emacs, and everything else is secondary.
derStandard.at: So you need GTK +?
Chris DiBona: Yeah, and Unity provides GTK + support, right? [Smiles]
Ubuntu generally followed an interesting path. I don’t know if you saw Mark Shuttleworth’s speech, but when he said that he was going to transplant 200 million people to Ubuntu, I had one thought: “Stunned what aggressive goals Mark has”.
derStandard.at: Do you know how many users they have now?
Chris DiBona: They talk about 12 million users, which sounds quite realistic, but the accuracy of the measurements is always relative.
derStandard.at: How do companies like Google choose a compromise between clandestine development and open source?
Chris DiBona: Depends on the project. If, say, we are talking about Chrome, then you can follow every code change in real time, while Android has a closed development cycle, after which it is released under an open license.
derStandard.at: What is the reason for such different approaches?
Chris DiBona: This is a different type of market. If you take a closer look at Android, you will see that we have to work with a huge number of partners. These are partners in the field of hardware development, partners in the field of ready-made solutions (communicators and tablets), partners in the field of providing services of cellular operators. Everyone has their own requirements and everyone needs a special approach. Moreover, do not forget that, say, in the field of ready-made solutions, many manufacturers are competitors and look at each other accordingly. Of course, they do not want to work with each other. I think you understand all the difficulties of an absolutely transparent development.
derStandard.at: As a defender and a fierce advocate of free software, is it painful for you to see that the Honeycomb code will not work under an open source license?
Chris DiBona: Of course, I would like to get it soon. Previously, everything was the opposite - first the code, then the update, with Honeycomb the opposite. But developers still have a lot of work to bring the code according to free licenses, but for now there are some problems with Apache. All that under the GPL and the LGPL, we naturally released.
But I completely trust in this issue Andy [Rubin] (head of Android development) and his team, who claim that the release of the code will be when all the license features are taken into account. Although, of course, it is sometimes difficult to understand where they find problems there that require postponing the deadlines. But at the same time, I think Android is the Linux success story I have dreamed of since 1995. It’s a real pleasure for me to see that many people around the world communicate very closely with Linux.
derStandard.at: For quite a few years, there has been talk of the successes of Linux-based desktops, of vendecapce, etc. What do you think about how relevant this issue is at the moment of the growing popularity of the growing share of mobile devices?
Chris DiBona: There is a very big question that concerns whether people will accept a Linux-based desktop that looks like ChromeOS or Android OS. If yes, then Linux will achieve a certain popularity in the user field. Otherwise, I see no prospects for modern “classic” Linux distributions. They are unlikely to gain popularity equal to Mac OS or Windows.
For a long time working in the field of development, testing, seeing a lot of very different projects, you begin to understand how vulnerable the user machines are and how vulnerable the servers are. However, having become acquainted with ChromeOS, I realized how difficult it is to compromise devices running this operating system.
derStandard.at: But do not you think that ChromeOS is still ahead of its time?
Chris DiBona: Maybe. Although if you think about it, then everything is in order. ChromeOS implies a permanent connection to the network, so your machine will always be in the best condition, completely reliable and safe. That is, we can say that this is a little thing in which there are a lot of functions and applications, use it for health and don’t think about anything.
I can tell you that ChromeOS is used in a corporate environment - and that's great, and it's always reliable. No need to think that you will lose something if the device turns off, is lost, or some other misfortune happens. Or a laptop under ChromeOS would be an excellent choice for those who work in very large companies, which become the target of hackers, and the value of data is a priority. So I think that ChromeOS will be popular for people who can not live without the Web, as well as for corporate structures. Of course, IBM will not rush to implement ChromeOS, but still many companies will implement the system in their standards.
And the reason is that modern security models for custom OSs are extremely primitive and unreliable. A lot of tasks are shifted to the shoulders of the user, who in these matters does not cut at all. Therefore, the security of modern systems is ephemeral.
derStandard.at: But don't you think that telling a consumer before buying beautiful tales about cloud protection technologies is a bit strange, especially in the light of events with the same Sony company, which found out how much a pound of hard times it was?
Chris DiBona: Oh, well, Sony exceeded all my expectations. I, frankly, shocked by all this. Although the explanation is quite simple - security for the company was not a priority. But the fact that the payment information of users was fully accessible was generally a nightmare and a mess. I know companies that refused to store payment information at all, because they could not guarantee the safety of such information, but if you took 77 million payment card numbers for storage, then you need to be aware of how to ensure the privacy of such information. Okay, for example, the last 4 digits of the cards would leak, but completely - this is an outrage. If you take the responsibility to store such information, then carry it with honor.
But in general, after this whole story with a Sony rootkit, I would be careful not to transfer my payment data to such a company.
derStandard.at: Google has been working on the Summer of Code project for several years now, sponsoring students to work on specific innovations in Open Source. How can you describe the company's interest in this plan?
Chris DiBona: Google has enough interests here. We need a lot of open source projects, a lot of developers. It is these developers who lay the foundations for future standards and protocols that make the Internet free. Well, some developers after this project came to work with us.
We have spent about $ 28 million since the launch, in addition to offering new projects, tasks and ideas. So we are always glad to newcomers with interesting ideas that will serve Open Source.
derStandard.at: What licenses are used for SoC projects?
Chris DiBona: The last time I did the calculations, Apache and BSD were roughly equal with a small amount of GPL.
derStandard.at: Why do you still not support Git in Google Code?
Chris DiBona: Because we do not support. [Smiles]
derStandard.at: But are you working to fix this situation?
Chris DiBona: Of course.
derStandard.at: Could you give a brief overview of how Google is related to open source software?
Chris DiBona: Most people familiar with Google, of course, would call Android and Chrome, but Google’s Open Source is much more. We have released about 1,300 open source projects in the past five years. If you use the currently popular measure, it is about 24-25 million lines of code released under various open licenses. So I have reason to assume that your computer has code written by our developers.
')
derStandard.at: Can it be argued that the release of open source software has become the standard for Google? Are you trying to encourage and convince developers to release their code as Opn Source?
Chris DiBona: The task of our department is even more likely not in this. The developer at the time of writing the code already knows about how he wants to dispose of this code, so he comes to the guys from our department with the words, they say, I want to make this project open-source. Our business is to give him recommendations and advice on how to get around the pitfalls that are in this matter.
derStandard.at: Could you specify this moment?
Chris DiBona: Say, for example, you are a developer, saw a flaw in the project and wanted to send a patch. To do this, you need to send him to our department, we will check it and confirm if it is in the case. If there are a lot of such efficient fixes, then get full access to make corrections without our knowledge.
If you want to start a new project under the wing of our company, then a preliminary analysis of patents and trademarks takes about three days after which we confirm the project, or explain what obstacles there may be. Usually we finish all the paperwork and other dull bureaucracies before the developer has finished writing the code, and the project is ready for release.
For large projects like Android and Chrome, it takes, of course, much more time. For example, we worked with the Android development department for about three years before G1 came out, helping developers deal with licensing, choosing the direction of development and strategy.
derStandard.at: What do you say about small projects, what license do they use?
Chris DiBona: For us, the Apache license has become the unwritten standard, but if a developer insists on being released under a different license, then we are discussing this issue, as well as not forgetting the direction of the project. If the development is aimed at something, say, in the Firefox browser, then we stop at another license, because the Apache license is not compatible with the licensing policy of Mozilla Firefox. Then, of course, a different license is chosen.
derStandard.at: Why do you prefer the Apache license?
Chris DiBona: We really like her. It contains provisions that make it more suitable for contemporary realities, taking into account some aspects of the patent system. Naturally, you get the right to freely use and modify the code, like most open licenses. By the way, all our patents, which are used in these free products, are also transferred to you and users for free use. True, the right to patents will be lost if your company starts to sue us. If this is not in your plans, then Google will not fix any other limitations and obstacles.
derStandard.at: In earlier interviews you mentioned that the MySQL project is one of the most important projects used by Google. Is it so?
Chris DiBona: Then it was true, but now it’s probably not already ...
derStandard.at: This is all because the relationship with Oracle, uh, somewhat cooled, to say the least?
Chris DiBona: [Smiles] It's a bit more complicated. Most likely the fact is that the applicability and significance of the MySQL project has somewhat decreased, and I can say that this concerns not only Google.
derStandard.at: So what came in return?
Chris DiBona: in fact, MySQL is still used as an integral part of our advertising system. In all other places she was forced out. Why? You see, Google has to work simply with huge amounts of data, and all existing implementations of database management systems, including open and free, are not able to scale adequately. Therefore, we had to write ours from scratch. So were born BigTable and Megastore .
derStandard.at: Apart from what you are developing yourself, what open projects are most important for your company?
Chris DiBona: First of all, this is GCC. Also, of course, this is the Linux kernel, all compilers, languages like Java, C ++ and Python. The OpenSSL project, as well as FFmpeg, has received tremendous importance for us, so we strive to help them with all the available forces and resources.
derStandard.at: Where do you use Linux inside Google?
Chris DiBona: Yes, everywhere. Each production machine and server runs on Linux-based systems, well, Android on mobile, of course, a lot of desktop systems for everyday routine use.
derStandard.at: What percentage of desktops work under Linux?
Chris DiBona: This is a good question. We have Linux, some Windows machines and a decent amount of Macs. If the percentage of laptops, then 70% work under Mac OS X, and the rest are mainly running Linux-based systems, so we are a big consumer of Apple. The overwhelming number of development-oriented desktops are managed by Linux. To do this, we have a special fork called ubuntu called Goobuntu, you will surely hear about it. It is integrated into our networks and has some utilities that are useful to developers.
Now we are trying to find an application for ChromeOS, but everything here is still dim. I have one machine under this system, but it only makes me happy until I have to sit down for programming. Our engineers are working to solve this problem, but so far the results do not allow ChromeOS to be called an adequate replacement for existing systems for developers.
derStandard.at: How do you follow the foundation of the Ubuntu development branch?
Chris DiBona: Follow, but without excessive fanaticism. You know that stability and reliability are very important for any organization, so even if you chase the mainstream with all your might, you will not catch up with it anyway. There is also a certain dependence on the owner of the car, so it’s hard for me now to say everything in the smallest details.
derStandard.at: Ubuntu recently changed the interface from GNOME to Unity. What do you say, will introduce?
Chris DiBona: Not in this state. Our googles need Eclipse, VIM, Emacs, and everything else is secondary.
derStandard.at: So you need GTK +?
Chris DiBona: Yeah, and Unity provides GTK + support, right? [Smiles]
Ubuntu generally followed an interesting path. I don’t know if you saw Mark Shuttleworth’s speech, but when he said that he was going to transplant 200 million people to Ubuntu, I had one thought: “Stunned what aggressive goals Mark has”.
derStandard.at: Do you know how many users they have now?
Chris DiBona: They talk about 12 million users, which sounds quite realistic, but the accuracy of the measurements is always relative.
derStandard.at: How do companies like Google choose a compromise between clandestine development and open source?
Chris DiBona: Depends on the project. If, say, we are talking about Chrome, then you can follow every code change in real time, while Android has a closed development cycle, after which it is released under an open license.
derStandard.at: What is the reason for such different approaches?
Chris DiBona: This is a different type of market. If you take a closer look at Android, you will see that we have to work with a huge number of partners. These are partners in the field of hardware development, partners in the field of ready-made solutions (communicators and tablets), partners in the field of providing services of cellular operators. Everyone has their own requirements and everyone needs a special approach. Moreover, do not forget that, say, in the field of ready-made solutions, many manufacturers are competitors and look at each other accordingly. Of course, they do not want to work with each other. I think you understand all the difficulties of an absolutely transparent development.
derStandard.at: As a defender and a fierce advocate of free software, is it painful for you to see that the Honeycomb code will not work under an open source license?
Chris DiBona: Of course, I would like to get it soon. Previously, everything was the opposite - first the code, then the update, with Honeycomb the opposite. But developers still have a lot of work to bring the code according to free licenses, but for now there are some problems with Apache. All that under the GPL and the LGPL, we naturally released.
But I completely trust in this issue Andy [Rubin] (head of Android development) and his team, who claim that the release of the code will be when all the license features are taken into account. Although, of course, it is sometimes difficult to understand where they find problems there that require postponing the deadlines. But at the same time, I think Android is the Linux success story I have dreamed of since 1995. It’s a real pleasure for me to see that many people around the world communicate very closely with Linux.
derStandard.at: For quite a few years, there has been talk of the successes of Linux-based desktops, of vendecapce, etc. What do you think about how relevant this issue is at the moment of the growing popularity of the growing share of mobile devices?
Chris DiBona: There is a very big question that concerns whether people will accept a Linux-based desktop that looks like ChromeOS or Android OS. If yes, then Linux will achieve a certain popularity in the user field. Otherwise, I see no prospects for modern “classic” Linux distributions. They are unlikely to gain popularity equal to Mac OS or Windows.
For a long time working in the field of development, testing, seeing a lot of very different projects, you begin to understand how vulnerable the user machines are and how vulnerable the servers are. However, having become acquainted with ChromeOS, I realized how difficult it is to compromise devices running this operating system.
derStandard.at: But do not you think that ChromeOS is still ahead of its time?
Chris DiBona: Maybe. Although if you think about it, then everything is in order. ChromeOS implies a permanent connection to the network, so your machine will always be in the best condition, completely reliable and safe. That is, we can say that this is a little thing in which there are a lot of functions and applications, use it for health and don’t think about anything.
I can tell you that ChromeOS is used in a corporate environment - and that's great, and it's always reliable. No need to think that you will lose something if the device turns off, is lost, or some other misfortune happens. Or a laptop under ChromeOS would be an excellent choice for those who work in very large companies, which become the target of hackers, and the value of data is a priority. So I think that ChromeOS will be popular for people who can not live without the Web, as well as for corporate structures. Of course, IBM will not rush to implement ChromeOS, but still many companies will implement the system in their standards.
And the reason is that modern security models for custom OSs are extremely primitive and unreliable. A lot of tasks are shifted to the shoulders of the user, who in these matters does not cut at all. Therefore, the security of modern systems is ephemeral.
derStandard.at: But don't you think that telling a consumer before buying beautiful tales about cloud protection technologies is a bit strange, especially in the light of events with the same Sony company, which found out how much a pound of hard times it was?
Chris DiBona: Oh, well, Sony exceeded all my expectations. I, frankly, shocked by all this. Although the explanation is quite simple - security for the company was not a priority. But the fact that the payment information of users was fully accessible was generally a nightmare and a mess. I know companies that refused to store payment information at all, because they could not guarantee the safety of such information, but if you took 77 million payment card numbers for storage, then you need to be aware of how to ensure the privacy of such information. Okay, for example, the last 4 digits of the cards would leak, but completely - this is an outrage. If you take the responsibility to store such information, then carry it with honor.
But in general, after this whole story with a Sony rootkit, I would be careful not to transfer my payment data to such a company.
derStandard.at: Google has been working on the Summer of Code project for several years now, sponsoring students to work on specific innovations in Open Source. How can you describe the company's interest in this plan?
Chris DiBona: Google has enough interests here. We need a lot of open source projects, a lot of developers. It is these developers who lay the foundations for future standards and protocols that make the Internet free. Well, some developers after this project came to work with us.
We have spent about $ 28 million since the launch, in addition to offering new projects, tasks and ideas. So we are always glad to newcomers with interesting ideas that will serve Open Source.
derStandard.at: What licenses are used for SoC projects?
Chris DiBona: The last time I did the calculations, Apache and BSD were roughly equal with a small amount of GPL.
derStandard.at: Why do you still not support Git in Google Code?
Chris DiBona: Because we do not support. [Smiles]
derStandard.at: But are you working to fix this situation?
Chris DiBona: Of course.
Source: https://habr.com/ru/post/123999/
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